Finding Cat Hair in Food, Picking People's Brains, CCing the Wrong Person, and More

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And we had so many great questions from you all in the wilderness ...

Leah: [howls]

Nick: ... that we have a bonus episode. So here we go. Our first question is, quote, "As has been our annual tradition for the past 20 years, my husband's sister and her husband come for a large holiday dinner at my home. Due to religious traditions and observance, I prepare all of the food that will be served. In prior years, we have always done the following dance: my sister-in-law asks if she can bring anything, and I always reply, "No, thank you. Just yourselves." Then she insists again, and I say, "Oh, some fresh fruit would be lovely, thanks.' This year, she didn't start the dance, so I figured she would just be bringing the fruit again. No such luck! This time she arrived with a home-baked cake—Martha Stewart's flourless chocolate cake, if you're curious. When it came time for dessert, I accidentally on purpose, did not serve the cake, because I know it did not meet my immediate family's religious expectations. If you know, you know. But when Lisa asked for it to be served, I apologized and relented in order to keep peace. I cut into the cake and discovered what was unmistakably a cat hair embedded inside the cake. I know it was a cat hair, because as I rushed to discreetly ask my husband what to do—remove the cake entirely, accidentally on purpose drop it on the floor, scream fire—my mother-in-law cut herself a piece of the cake and announced she had found a cat hair in the cake.

Nick: "As an aside, my sister-in-law has three cats. Were the cats sending a message? Did they resent not being invited? It was only by the grace of all things holy that all of my other family and guests had partaken of the dessert buffet before this feline fiasco ensued. Nevertheless, I kept an eagle eye on the cake and sent it home with my sister-in-law with much thanks and insistence that her son, who was absent from the dinner, should enjoy the cake. How would you have handled this? And going forward, would it be easier to assign my sister-in-law to bring a bottle of wine instead of remaining silent and suffering the consequences."

Leah: I don't understand what the disconnect is with the sister. I feel like it should be so, like, hey, this is about my family's religious preferences.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: She should just get it and not bring the food.

Nick: Well, here's the charitable read. She brought a flourless chocolate cake, and I am gonna assume that this was a Passover meal where we were not doing leavened things. And so the idea of a flourless cake in the sister-in-law's mind was like, oh, this'll be appropriate for this meal. I think that was maybe the thought process.

Leah: I'm fine with giving a charitable read.

Nick: Right.

Leah: You know me, I love a charitable read. That being said, I think we can just restate, "Hey, my family has very strict religious traditions around this meal and this food, and so it works great for us if I can just do it in my kitchen, because I observe all of these. And I really appreciate you wanting to bring something—it's so lovely of you—so if you could just bring fruit or wine, I would really appreciate it."

Nick: Yeah, I feel like that actually would be very nice. And the idea that this is not just some preference but, like, this is actually a religious requirement, I think that really makes that conversation much easier.

Leah: And that's just it. That's just ...

Nick: That's just it.

Leah: I mean, that's what it is.

Nick: Yeah. How could you argue with that?

Leah: I showed up once at an event where I didn't realize that my friend's family was very religious. And I had brought something that did not match the guidelines, and my host informed me. I was mortified. I don't think they wanted me to be mortified, but I personally felt mortified, and I immediately removed it and never did it again. I mean, that's just it. It's the religious preferences. That's the end of the deal.

Nick: Yes, the end of the story. Now one thing that gives me a little pause is it's one thing if she asks,, like, "Oh, can I bring something?" But to preemptively tell her? I guess, how do we navigate that?

Leah: Well, the thing is, she didn't ask this time and she brought something.

Nick: Right. And so we didn't have the opportunity to be like, hey, actually there are some guidelines here and you're not gonna be able to meet them, so just bring yourself.

Leah: I think we could just say—we could make it a general statement, not directed at her. "Hey, I'm telling everybody this. My family has very strict religious dietary restrictions around this meal, so it's just easiest for us if I just cook it in our own kitchen where I observe all of those things. And I'm just letting everybody know: please don't bring outside food."

Nick: Okay, great. That works.

Leah: I mean, I just feel like that's very clear.

Nick: Very clear. Now let's talk about the second question here, which is what do we do about a cat hair?

Leah: [laughs] I mean, I love the idea that the cats are sending a message.

Nick: Right?

Leah: Because if any animal would be sending a message, it would be cats.

Nick: Yes, that is absolutely a hundred percent correct. Yes.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick:Yeah. I mean, what do we do when we discover some foreign object in an edible item in our home? Yeah, I don't think we serve it.

Leah: I love, though, that the mother-in-law got to it first and just announced it. So then we don't even have to worry about what to do because ...

Nick: That's the end of that.

Leah: My mother-in-law handled the situation.

Nick: But also the mother-in-law is like, "Oh, there's a cat hair in this cake," and then we still send the cake home with them and are like, "Oh, give it to your son." Is that what we did?

Leah: No, we gave it back to the people who made it.

Nick: Right. And then we're like, "Oh, please have your son enjoy this."

Leah: But we're not throwing it away.

Nick: We're not throwing it away, but there's a cat hair in the cake. We stopped eating it. I guess did the cake baker know? Did the cake baker hear the mother-in-law's announcement? They must have.

Leah: They must have. But I think they're fine with it. They have cats.

Nick: Oh, they're like, "Oh, this is part of the deal. We have cats."

Leah: They're like, "Cat hair. Whatever."

Nick: "Cat hair makes it into the baked goods. That's part of our thing."

Leah: Because if they weren't fine with it, they would have been like, "Oh no, I'm so sorry," and then just cleared it or thrown it away or something.

Nick: That actually is the mystery. When the cake baker knew that a cat hair was discovered in their cake, they did nothing?

Leah: I think they were like, whatever.

Nick: That's, I think, very curious.

Leah: Well, I think for me that falls in line completely with somebody who's like, "Oh, you have religious restrictions around this meal? I'm gonna figure that out on my own, and just make something that I think might fit that without knowing what all the rules are and bring it anyway."

Nick: That's true. Yeah, there is a certain level of obliviousness here.

Leah: It's not ill-willed. It's just casual. It's casual.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, it is definitely not ill-willed, but it is definitely ill-advised.

Leah: I mean, I'll be honest, like, if I see food and it has a Lacey or Greta hair in it, I'll eat it. Whatever. They're my dogs.

Nick: Oh, isn't that interesting?

Leah: I just pick it out and I go, "Lacey! Greta!"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess in your life you're probably always picking out dog hair out of your mouth.

Leah: Honestly, it's never been in my food, but I'm saying if it had, I don't think I would be mortified.

Nick: I guess it's true. Like, if I'm cooking and one of my own hairs gets in something, I do feel differently about it than if I'm dining in a restaurant and it's somebody else's hair.

Leah: It's completely different. I will say my hair being curly, it's everywhere. Dustin will find it in his socks when he's out of town for work. It just clings to things.

Nick: Although cat hair does feel like a slightly different category. But I guess if it's your cat.

Leah: It's your cat. It's your baby. You're like, "Oh, Celine!"

Nick: So what do we do in the future? We just set some nice boundaries.

Leah: I like the idea of just we're making an announcement every year. "Hey, I'm handling all the food."

Nick: And then if there's a cat hair in the future, yeah, we don't serve it and we're like, "Oh, oopsie daisy. Unfortunately, this won't work."

Leah: Or we pull it away when nobody's looking.

Nick: Or when everyone's looking.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: If they're taking a bite, you slap their hand and the fork immediately and just let it all fall to the floor.

Leah: How about when they put the food into their mouth, we go, "Meow!"

Nick: [laughs] I mean, that would be effective.

Leah: I'm not a person who would be bothered because I'd be like, "Oh, it was in the oven. It's a clean cat hair."

Nick: Oh, the oven part makes it different?

Leah: Yeah. It's been cooked.

Nick: Oh, okay. So it's a sanitized ...

Leah: It's a sanitized cat hair.

Nick: Okay. I mean, I see your point.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I see your point. Maybe it's fine then. So our next question is, quote, "A distant cousin messaged me on LinkedIn asking if she could share information about her new business so she could, quote, 'get my take.' I agreed and asked her to propose some dates and times. Instead, she sent a link to her scheduling app. I get that it's efficient, but it feels like asking me to do more work when I'm already doing her a favor. I'd prefer she suggest a few options I can reply to. Is that old-fashioned of me, or am I overthinking this?"

Leah: I think you could just say what you'd prefer.

Nick: Yeah, I think that's fine. And I don't know if that's old-fashioned. I mean, I definitely am aware that people use these services and like to throw those links around. But I don't think it's old-fashioned to not love that.

Leah: Yeah. I think you would just say, "Hey, I prefer it if you just suggested some dates and I'll let you know if those work."

Nick: But before we get there, there are few things I dislike more than somebody wanting to get my take on something, or pick my brain, like to schedule a meeting to pick my brain. Like, I really dislike these.

Leah: Well, my guess is that what you would dislike more is if they asked to pick your brain and then wanted you to set up the meeting time.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would definitely not enjoy that part either. Yes. I think why it bothers me—and maybe why it bothers our letter-writer—is that there's something about the imbalance of effort that actually makes this work. So, like, you are asking me for a favor—you want my time, you want my expertise. And so as part of that, I want to know you appreciate my time and expertise, and I want you to signal that you get it. And part of the way you can signal it is if you go out of your way to accommodate me.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And so by making the scheduling all about me—what works for me, what is convenient—that helps send that signal where even though it is efficient, it's very efficient to send a link and let me pick, it doesn't send that signal. And that missing signal I think is actually the whole point here.

Leah: I one hundred percent agree with you, Nick, and I think you stated that so well.

Nick: And how it should go is you should basically say, like, "Hey, I'm available in these huge ranges of times." And you should already know what's already scheduled that you can move for me. So if you had an appointment at two o'clock tomorrow and you know you can move it, don't even mention it. Just give me the whole availability knowing that you could move that for me, so you can just give me these wide berths of scheduling availability. Like, I love somebody who's like, "Hey, I can do all day Tuesday, all day Wednesday afternoon, most anytime Thursday morning." Like, I love getting that because it's like, okay, I can pick. That's a lot of time availability.

Leah: I think you're totally right. It's really about the feeling—this person is recognizing that I'm doing them a favor. I feel appreciated. Great.

Nick: Great. Yeah. And that's really, I think, what's missing. And then I was thinking, like,are there other examples of that? Yeah, I think the thank-you note is a good example of this. Efficiency is not what the thank-you note is about. In fact, the fact that it is slightly inefficient is actually the whole point. Because yeah, you could just send a text message. "Thank you." But, oh, it took a little more time, a little more effort. It actually lands a little differently. So I think a similar principle here.

Leah: I mean, I don't feel the same way about that, but that's fine. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Okay, Well, we have different thoughts about text messages, but we agree that the handwritten thank-you note does land differently because it does take a little more time and effort, right? We agree on this.

Leah: It lands differently, yes.

Nick: It does land differently. Whether or not both are acceptable? Okay, a debate for another time.

Leah: Well, in that debate, I also want to say that there's different—when people are really close in your life, I don't think you need to have it land that way because you're past that part of your relationship.

Nick: Agreed. No, the handwritten thank-you note is not required for all situations. I just hate saying that, because people hear it and they're like, "Oh, I don't have to do it." And so unless we can have the whole nuanced conversation, it is just easier to kind of default to the handwritten thank-you note. But it is true, I don't send handwritten thank-you notes for everything.

Leah: Thank you. That's all I needed you to say.

Nick: I don't, but I know the difference when I need to and when I don't.

Leah: That being said, back to what the conversation was actually about and not Nick's slow axe to grind. I don't know if you also want to work in which way the card goes into the thank-you note into this conversation, but ...

Nick: Oh, can I?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I feel like we have definitely exhausted that conversation. Yes.

Leah: I had a friend actually say the same thing to me. She was very upset because of the amount of people—she's doing very well on something right now—who've just messaged her and been like, "Can I pick your brain?" And that's the phrase that she used that really puts her over the edge.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Without in any way offering some sort of like, "How can I make this work for you? How can I show you how much I appreciate your time?"

Nick: And I think just to harp on that for a moment, the phrase "pick your brain" really minimizes what it is that you want from me. It is meant to sound super casual, like, "Oh, I just want a little nugget of your wisdom." But it's like, no, you want me to distill my entire life's work and expertise down for you and give you a shortcut. That's what that is. You're not picking my brain.

Leah: But that would be fun, though, if I emailed you and I was like, "Nick, can I get you to distill ..."

Nick: [laughs] Your life's philosophy and ...

Leah: "... your life's work, and then give it to me in a Cliff's Notes?"

Nick: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Leah: I mean, that would be a funner email to get, because at least that person would recognize that's what it is.

Nick: Yeah, I would appreciate—it would be honest. But the "pick your brain," I mean, it's always minimizing my contribution and what you're wanting. And that just feels sneaky. So I don't like that.

Leah: Well, I think it's really good to bring it up, because I think a lot of people don't really realize how sneaky it feels, and it's good that people can be like, oh, maybe it's not being taken the way I want it to be taken.

Nick: Yeah. People who take this very casually need to take it more seriously.

Leah: Well, and I think it's also like, don't waste their time. Have specific questions.

Nick: That, also. Right.

Leah: Offer to be like, "This could be over lunch. I can take you to lunch." And then I can say, "I don't have the time, but I can do a call." You know what I mean?

Nick: Right. Oh, I definitely do not want a lunch "pick your brain" meeting. Yeah.

Leah: No, but I think it's nice to offer. Like, I'd be willing to treat you.

Nick: Because that way you feel like, oh, I take your time seriously and I take your hunger seriously. Which is thoughtful.

Leah: Food always works for me.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't not work. So our next question is, quote, "There are four of us in a group chat—old friends from high school who live far apart geographically. We graduated from high school over 30 years ago. Recently, a fellow high school alum died from a longtime illness, and one of our chat friends sent the rest of us a text message letting us know. Someone else in the chat took that information and made posts on social media announcing the death and posting photos from high school. And they weren't great photos, which makes it worse. The family of the deceased—their spouse, two grown sons and parents—were not contacted to see if or how they wanted information released. Two of us in the chat group think the social media post crossed an etiquette boundary. Is our town crier friend in the wrong?"

Leah: Before we answer the question, I want to say that I see this happen a lot.

Nick: Oh, very common. So common.

Leah: Like, it's very common now that I think people don't even think of it.

Nick: No, and it is actually one of the oldest etiquette rules in the books. The family is in charge of death notices. Full stop. That's the rule. The family is in charge of death notices, and whatever form those come in, the rule is the same. So a Facebook post is a death notice, and that's not allowed here.

Leah: I was gonna say, like, if the information came from a post from the family, I think that's fine to repost.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: But if we just found that information out and they hadn't said anything yet, then that's a whole other story.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, reposting is a very different category because you are not making the announcement, you're just spreading the word.

Leah: Yeah, you making the announcement seems not right.

Nick: Not right. And then the photo thing? I don't love the idea of posting photos of a deceased person sort of independently. I could be swayed either way on this, but it would give me pause to just post on Facebook photos of the deceased. I kind of would want to send it to the family and let them make that decision.

Leah: I mean, I'm not—if you have photos of somebody, and you guys were out having a great time together and these were memories you shared, and it was after the announcement happened and you were like, this was a part of our lives, I'm okay with that. But not that would embarrass that person or embarrass that family.

Nick: I mean, I would be so upset if at my wake there are big easels around the room with blown-up photos of me in high school. I would be so upset that these are the photos you selected. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing doing bad photos? This is not nice.

Leah: Oh, yeah. I wouldn't want to pick, like, compromising photos in any way, but if there's like ...

Nick: Not even compromising photos, but just like, who looked great in high school? Who are those people?

Leah: All the people who right now are complaining about aging. You're like, well ...

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. So those people. Aside from those people, like, for the rest of us where we have grown up, we've gotten better with age. So yeah, I think to not post nice photos, I think that also is just twisting the knife here a little bit.

Leah: I guess in my mind they weren't like—you know I'm always kind reading except for if somebody's sitting next to me and making noises on a plane, but I was thinking they were just kind of grainy, like we're all like whatever you do in high school.

Nick: Right. We're just being emo next to the lockers.

Leah: Yeah. You know, like that's what I imagine. But yeah, we don't want to post pictures of people where they're like ...

Nick: Yeah, we don't need those high school photos.

Leah: So I think next time that we want to let our friends know about something that happened to somebody, we start a separate group chat without this person.

Nick: Maybe. Although I'm a little concerned that two people in this group chat thought this was a problem. And so we have two remaining people. One of those is the person that did it. So now we have this third person. That's the person I'm concerned about. What's their judgment? They're like, this was fine? I don't love that.

Leah: It is interesting to me how some people are just so comfortable sharing information about other people that they know, and they don't see anything weird with it.

Nick: Yes, I think the internet has increasingly encouraged us to share—share about ourselves, and then I guess by extension about anybody else in our lives. And yeah, I think we are very comfortable as a society with just sharing, oversharing. And the idea of discretion, yeah, that is more and more elusive. Like, the idea of discretion, like this concept of discretion, like, how often are we talking about discretion anymore?

Leah: Yes. The idea that people might not want that out there yet is just really lost on some people.

Nick: Yeah. The idea of discretion, being discreet. Yeah, I feel like what a—I don't think I've used the word "discretion" in so long because it just doesn't come up as a concept anymore for anybody. Wow, that this is what we've become.

Leah: And in that way, that's why I think this third person is like, "Oh, what's the big deal?" Because it's happening so much that it's just normal.

Nick: Yeah. That normalization. Yeah, I don't love that. So I think we gotta hold the line. The old etiquette principle is still the current one, which is the family gets to decide how to announce a death and we just leave it to them to do it and, like, let them do it. It's not our place.

Leah: Not to post publicly.

Nick: No.

Leah: Like, if you want to let a third friend know, like on a phone call that this happened, I think that's different.

Nick: That is definitely different. Yes. That's a private conversation and it's somebody who, you know, needed to know or you thought they should know. Like, that is very different than, like, oh, I'm announcing things before the family on Facebook.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: It almost has a little flavor of, oh, I want to win this. I want to be the first to post. I had this gossip, and so that gives me some social currency because I was the first to know. I knew before anybody else. It has a little of that flavor, and I don't like that flavor.

Leah: It's not a nice flavor.

Nick: Not a good flavor. So that's what we think about that. Town crier? Not cool. Not cool.

Leah: Also, I'm very sorry to your classmate and their family.

Nick: Yes, very sorry. So our next question is, quote, "My brother-in-law comes from a culture in which it's respectful to remove your shoes when entering the home. However, my mother has significant foot issues and was told by her podiatrist that she should wear shoes at all times. When my mother wore shoes into my sister's house, she was reprimanded. My mother defended herself by saying this is a medical issue and she is just following doctor's orders. My sister is a nurse and says mom can forego shoes for a short period of time and views it as a sign of disrespect. Any ideas?"

Leah: My idea was what if mom has a pair of shoes that are indoor shoes that have never been worn outside, that have the support that she needs, that we leave at this house, so they're only there for indoor shoes for this house.

Nick: I'll see your new pair of shoes that have never been worn outdoors, and I'll raise you some painter's booties. Let mom keep her shoes and just put some painter's booties over them.

Leah: I love it.

Nick: Yeah. Why are we making mom buy new shoes? Just let her have her shoes.

Leah: The only issue with that would be if they're slippery.

Nick: Oh yeah. Okay.

Leah: And sometimes people with walking issues also get a little slippery.

Nick: I think there are painter's booties that I've seen that do have some rubberized bottoms. So—but okay, you found a hole in my plan there.

Leah: It's not a hole in the plan, it's just that I know that sometimes, you know, people are worried about falling, and we don't want to add slippery to worry about falling.

Nick: Yeah, I don't want to cause worse problems here. Okay. In which case, the pair of shoes that lives there, that mom can wear. Yeah. But the idea that we're making mom take off her shoes? No. Mom keeps her shoes on. Mom is wearing shoes in this story. We don't live in a world in which she's taking off her shoes.

Leah: She has a doctor's note!

Nick: Yes. And we have said many times, health and safety really does trump etiquette. This is a health and safety issue. So, like, we need to live in a world in which she can wear her shoes. So you as the host need to figure out a way to make that work for you. So if it means you need to get her a new pair of shoes. It means painter's booties that have good grip on them. If it means that you just need to clean your carpets after she visits every time, well then that's what it needs to be. I'm so sorry but, like, we cannot make her take off her shoes.

Leah: I feel like the sister and the brother-in-law who are feeling like it's disrespectful that mom doesn't want to take it off should be—I think that the shoes just for their house solves that problem.

Nick: And I think arguing with her about, like, whether or not this is medically necessary or not, like, I don't think that's a road we go down.

Leah: Because it's also probably uncomfortable.

Nick: The conversation or actually, like, taking the shoes off?

Leah: Taking the shoes off. Like we don't, we want somebody to be uncomfortable medically?

Nick: Yeah. Or I mean, who knows why she needs to keep the shoes on? Like, it could be unsafe or it could be causing different types of damage. Like, who knows what the reason for the shoes are? Doesn't matter.

Leah: But Nick and I are coming in a hundred percent: Mom keeps shoes on.

Nick: Mom keeps the shoes on. So either it's the same pair of shoes or you're buying her a new pair of shoes, but shoes are happening.

Leah: Or there's a booty with a grip.

Nick: Exactly. Yes. We find the booty with the grip, which I do think is commercially available. If it is not, then my goodness, what a business opportunity.

Leah: What a business opportunity.

Nick: Like, what a great idea. Hey Sharks, do we have the opportunity for you? I mean, what a great idea.

Leah: I think we should double pitch this when we pitch our pants that start on fire.

Nick: Oh yes, of course.

Leah: They also have booties on so they can walk in people's houses.

Nick: Listeners, if you don't remember, Leah and I are going to invent pants that if you lie, boldface lie, your pants actually will catch on fire.

Leah: And if people won't put the pants on ...

Nick: Isn't that telling?

Leah: ... you already know they're liars.

Nick: Mm-hmm. I mean, what a great garment. Would love for this to exist as a product of the world.

Leah: I would love for it to exist!

Nick: So letter-writer, hopefully this solves your problems and let us know how it goes.

Leah: Please!

Nick: So our next question is, quote, "I was honored when you read my letter in an episode a couple of years ago. It was about being an embarrassing employee. Now I'm the embarrassing boss and I am dying! My employee—let's call her Lisa—is currently on a well-deserved luxury vacation, checking into work sporadically as prearranged. Yesterday, after meeting with management, I emailed the management team about a minor correction we will have to give Lisa when she returns. Nothing bad, but I know she will be disappointed, and I wanted to deliver that correction delicately with careful timing—except that for some reason I accidentally included Lisa on this very email about Lisa. I am pretty sure I have never made this kind of error before. Fortunately, I didn't say anything really negative or critical, and I saw what I did almost immediately, and I sprang into action. I hit "reply all," added the right person, apologized profusely to Lisa and the group for the awkwardness, told her not to sweat work, and offered to cash app her for a drink on me. Is there anything more I could do to smooth things over with Lisa, make her feel respected, and ease her mind that she's not working for an idiot? What about the team above me? Surely people make mistakes, and all we can do is handle them as gracefully as possible. It doesn't feel like quite enough, though, and I'm still so embarrassed I can hardly breathe. I will accept any comforting or helpful words you have to spare."

Leah: Oh, I love that we're getting a—we have a second-time writer.

Nick: Yes, second time writing. So now they get to experience being on the other side of the awkward coin.

Leah: [laughs] It really makes it perfect.

Nick: First employee, now you're the boss. Yes. And yeah, this is awkward. Yes. And I mean, I think—have I ever done it? I am trying to think. Have I ever sent an email to the wrong person? I guess I must have.

Leah: I've been on the receiving end of it.

Nick: I've definitely been on the receiving end. And I've been on the receiving end of some good ones!

Leah: Me too.

Nick: Oh, some real good ones. Oh yeah. But yes, I think everyone's done it. And this is pretty mild. This is pretty mild. So I think in the grand scheme of things, I think this is fine.

Leah: I think what makes you feel weird is that you know she was on vacation and you didn't want her to have to do—feel warped feelings.

Nick: Yes. And I do think your embarrassment is a little disproportionate here, and I think you might be overdoing it with the apology. Like, I think own it, own it once, fix what can be fixed, and you move on. So you've owned it, you fixed it, and now I think the hard part for you is gonna be moving on. So it's done, it's in the past, we move on.

Leah: I do think that's the important thing. Like, you owned it, you apologized for it. You didn't try to make it somebody else's thing. "Oh, they did this." You owned your actions, which I think is always the important part.

Nick: Yes. And I think that's what people will remember: how do we recover from this? Now I think if you're looking for some words of comfort, I think on some level, this is actually a good thing, because it is an unvarnished, raw look at how you actually feel about Lisa, which is that you respect her immensely. And that you are a kind and considerate boss, and how you wanted to be very delicate with this and make sure the timing was right, and that this correction was received in the right way. So on some level, you're actually signaling to Lisa that you actually are a very thoughtful boss here. And so on some level, this is actually maybe reputation enhancing. How's that for a spin?

Leah: I love that spin, Nick.

Nick: So I think on some level, like, okay, maybe not the worst thing. Now I think we can't do it again. So I think we definitely want to be checking our To and CC fields moving forward a little more carefully.

Leah: And in this line, "And I'm still so embarrassed I can hardly breathe," this is not the same thing, but it's the "still so embarrassed I can hardly breathe." Last week I sent out an email that was personal and vulnerable, which I dislike intensely.

Nick: Yeah. Why are we sending this email?

Leah: And I meant to send it to one person and instead I sent it to a complete stranger.

Nick: Oh, okay.

Leah: And it did not bounce back. And when I tell you that I laid on the floor mortified, I could not—I felt the same. I felt embarrassed. I was like, not only do I dislike having these kind of feelings and sharing them, I sent it to a stranger. And basically I had to do—when you feel so embarrassed you can't breathe, you've done what you can. It's out of your hands. So when you start thinking about it, talk out loud about something else, because you just have to get out of it. You gotta get out of the circle. Once you start thinking, there's nowhere to go. You can't outthink it.

Nick: Yeah. And for things like this that are, like, maybe mildly embarrassing, like, they always feel more embarrassing to you than anybody else. And the way you know that is like, think back to every dinner party or cocktail party you've ever been to. Like, think back, like all of them. Can you think about any awkward things that anybody else did? Like, they spilled salsa on their shirt or they dropped a chip on the floor. Like, can you remember anybody doing these things? No.

Leah: No.

Nick: Like, none of us remember any of those details. Now do we remember when we spilled salsa on ourselves? Like, how embarrassing! Yeah, of course. It's always more magnified for ourselves. So I would bet that, like, a week out, all the people in management who received this accidental email, like, they don't remember it or care. Like, it's not on their radar. Now you don't want to develop a reputation for being like, oh, you're the person that sends emails to the wrong person. So you can't be that person, because they do remember that. So don't make this a pattern. But as a one-off, this is totally fine. No one cares, no one remembers.

Leah: And especially since you owned it right away, like that's the sign.

Nick: Yeah, that's a sign of being an adult, being responsible, being a good citizen. Yeah. Yeah, etiquette problems are not a fine wine. They do not get better with age. So you jumped on it fast, you did all the things, and now we move on.

Leah: I love Nick's—that was a really good rebrand.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Yeah, I could—I could put a spin on anything.

Leah: But it's true, too!

Nick: It is true.

Leah: Now people know the quality of person you are. You make a mistake, you're gonna fix it, you're gonna reach out.

Nick: And I think interestingly, it is in these moments when we make mistakes that actually does reveal our true character. It reveals who we really are and how we respond to things. Like, this is actually what character is. This is how we see it in other people, these moments. And so I think you passed that test.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. So you out there, do you have tests for us? Oh yes, you do! Let us know. You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!