Dressing for Vague Galas, Pushing In Dining Chairs, Taking Cookies Prematurely, and More

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And we had so many great questions from you all in the wilderness ...

Leah: [howls]

Nick: ... that we have a bonus episode. So here we go. Our first question is an invitation—and this is like my new favorite thing, people sending us invitations and are like, "What's the dress code?" So Leah has not seen this. And Leah, I'm going to send this to your phone, and I want you to tell me what you would wear. So as Leah pulls this up, basically to protect the host, I will just say that this is a regional bank in the Southern part of the United States. So this is a corporate event. And so Leah, tell our nice listeners what you see.

Leah: Okay. So it is—I'm not gonna read it, because it says where it is. But it's a save-the-date gala.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: "Disco Jungle."

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: And then underneath that it says, "Reflecting back on a year of growth."

Nick: Yeah. And it says something about the gala. Gala what?

Leah: Gala 83.

Nick: Gala 83. Mm-hmm?

Leah: And then there's two disco balls.

Nick: Yeah?

Leah: And then some jungle foliage.

Nick: Yes. To me, that looks like a monstera leaf, and that looks like a bird of paradise.

Leah: Yeah, it's a bird of paradise.

Nick: And that looks like a heliconia. So very tropical flowers. Mm-hmm. And so that's what's on this invitation. It says "Save the date," "Gala 83," "Disco Jungle." And then "jungle" is actually written in sort of like a handwriting script. And then it says "Reflecting back on a year of growth." And then there's the date, and then it says "RSVP required." And so, Leah, what is this event? [laughs]

Leah: You know, Nick was like, "Hey, do you want to see this in advance, or do you want to be surprised?" And I was like, "Surprise me." And now I wish I'd said "See it in advance," because I mean, I have to—I'm gonna have to combine something disco-y.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: With some sort of a tropical foliage.

Nick: Sure. But I really am hanging my hat on this 83 part. Is this a 1983 party? Is this shoulder pads? Is this a wide belt?

Leah: I'm actually completely skipping over the 83.

Nick: That's very important!

Leah: No, there's no thing to act like it was 1983.

Nick: Oh, true. There's no apostrophe. It's just Gala 8-3.

Leah: It's just Gala 83 as if we're in—that's like a room number or, like, Gala 83 is the name of the place that we're in.

Nick: Or this is the 83rd edition?

Leah: Yeah, like one of those, because otherwise it would be apostrophe '83.

Nick: Oh, okay. So we're gonna assume that grammar, they're nailing it. So therefore, because there's no apostrophe, it is not a year.

Leah: Also, 83? It's too specific. If it was "Gala '80s ..."

Nick: Sure.

Leah: '83?

Nick: Well, I did look up the bank and to see, oh, like, were they founded in 1983? Like, is that it? No, they were not. So that has nothing to do with, like, the bank's founding.

Leah: I honestly am gonna skip over the 83 because it confuses me too much.

Nick: Okay, so you're just gonna do Disco Jungle?

Leah: I already am trying to combine Disco Jungle.

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: And then "Reflecting back on a year of growth." So I'm gonna bring as much foliage as possible to my outfit.

Nick: Oh, growth! Growth like foliage.

Leah: Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the growth and the jungle and the disco, and the 83 is getting taken right off my plate.

Nick: Interesting. Okay, that's an interesting take. I mean, it's a corporate event, too, so, like, you do need to still make it kind of professional. Like, this is a bank gala.

Leah: Like, I feel like I could wear a blazer over either a disco-y shirt.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: A shimmery shirt. Or a foliage shirt, like a tropical foliage.

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: Or a skirt, black skirt, black tights.

Nick: Right. Yeah, I think I would wear dark suit. I would wear silvery shirt.

Leah: Yes, I think so.

Nick: Then I would have a boutonnière that was a tropical flower.

Leah: That's nice. I like that.

Nick: I think that's how we would do that. But people, what are we doing? What are we doing? What is this invitation? How does this exist? What are you supposed to do if you receive this invitation?

Leah: I feel like 30 people worked on it, and they were all like—and then—so then they tried to compromise on it and put everybody's idea in.

Nick: Oh, is that the problem? A giraffe is a horse designed by committee?

Leah: Yes. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

Nick: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, a lot of levels of approval were probably required for this invitation.

Leah: There's just different themes on there.

Nick: It's just a lot. But I think the problem is invitations are supposed to give your guests all the things that they need to know in order to accept or decline the invitation. And I do not have that information from this invitation.

Leah: Is jungle disco, like, is that a kind of disco?

Nick: Oh, like a genre?

Leah: A genre of disco?

Nick: Uh ...

Leah: Like jungle beats?

Nick: Uh, okay. Let's for a moment pretend it is. Is this regional bank—is that what we're doing?

Leah: And there is foliage all over it reflecting back on a year of growth.

Nick: Also, I'm not gonna let this 83 go. I think this is 1983. I think it needs to have a 1980s quality to this.

Leah: Well, disco ...

Nick: Was dead by 1983.

Leah: It's not in the '80s.

Nick: No. No. I mean, I'm confused. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do here.

Leah: I like silver. I like silver, shimmery and something that looks tropical leaf-like.

Nick: But audience, if you are hosting a party, do not do this to your guests.

Leah: Unless it's like Lord of the Rings?

Nick: I mean, that's clear. I get what that is.

Leah: No, I was trying to think of a marriage. Lord of the Rings, Moonlight. [laughs]

Nick: Okay. You're not helping, Leah.

Leah: No, I know.

Nick: You're not helping. No, I'm just trying to make a point, which is this is bonkers. This makes no sense. This is super rude to your potential guests, because I have no idea what this event is. Also, it's a gala, which means it's a sit-down dinner, I would assume. And then what? I don't know. I don't know what to wear. I don't know what to expect. How do I RSVP for this?

Leah: Oh my gosh. We have three months. I was hoping it had already happened so they could send us pictures.

Nick: No, no, no. This is three months from now.

Leah: It's three months from now. I can already—let me tell you, though, I can visualize the room.

Nick: I can visualize the room. Yes, it's gonna be tropical flowers and disco balls. Sure.

Leah: Yes, that's exactly what it's gonna be.

Nick: And then potentially 1980s things. So maybe some big mainframe computers and then a Sally Ride poster, because I think that's when she went to space.

Leah: Yeah, we were just—[singing] ride, Sally, ride!

Nick: So that's what we would do. But no, this is just bonkers, and so I just want to highlight that this is bonkers and don't do this to your guests. Please, just if you're gonna have a theme like this then you need to be way more specific.

Leah: And I'm really excited to see pictures of what happened.

Nick: Yes. So letter-writer, you must ...

Leah: Must.

Nick: Absolutely. You have no choice.

Leah: Please!

Nick: You cannot send this to us and then not follow up. So go to this event, please. Take all the pictures. And actually, would you do an interview? Interview people at this party and ask: when you got this invitation, what did you think? Did you know what this was? I would love to hear what guests thought on the ground. Yes. Was this obvious to everybody else, and is it just us? Is it us? Are we the problem, Leah?

Leah: It might be us.

Nick: Okay. I'll take that. So our next question is quote, "What's the etiquette around asking multiple questions at once in a text? It always overwhelms me as the recipient, because it's hard to respond to each question clearly while not sounding impatient. I feel like people would never do this in an in-person conversation because it sounds like an interrogation."

Leah: So I think we should break these down into two separate kind of texts, like a work text, which is different because you're getting business information.

Nick: Right. Yeah. We have to get something done.

Leah: And then, like, friendly texts or acquaintance texts.

Nick: Yeah, I guess what is the vibe here? Is it like logistics? We're just trying to get something accomplished? Or is it like, oh, we're having a conversation, a little back and forth. So I think that's a question.

Leah: Yeah, because if it's logistics, it could be like, say I'm doing a job, like I have a gig, I need time, date, venue, details.

Nick: Right. So you may in one single text just be like, "I need all of these things."

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. I think that's fair. I mean, I guess, are these related items? So I think if they're related items—even if it's with a friend—I think you can bundle them. Like, "Hey, are we still on for dinner? If so, what time are you thinking, and where would you like to go? And any preference for cuisine?"

Leah: [laughs] I thought it was done after every one.

Nick: [laughs] But I would be happy with that, like, block of text, because it's all one thought. It's all part of the logistics of dining, right?

Leah: I would also be fine with, like, a "Hey, how was your vacation? How are your parents doing? Did the kids come?"

Nick: Okay, I like that. Yeah, that's all checking in on your life stuff.

Leah: Yeah. About a certain time off.

Nick: Right. Yeah. No, okay, so if it's related, I think it could be one thing.

Leah: It's not like, "How was your break? Are you watching this television show? What do you think about the number five?"

Nick: [laughs] "Break was great. Show was okay. Five, I'm neutral."

Leah: Neutral on five?

Nick: Yeah, a five—five is nobody's favorite number.

Leah: I like a five.

Nick: I give it a five out of ten, but it's no seven.

Leah: I mean, I feel like seven gets all the glory.

Nick: Yeah, seven is—seven is pretty hot. Yeah.

Leah: But five, it's just solid.

Nick: It's a great foundational number.

Leah: [laughs] It's a great foundational number.

Nick: It's prime. It's kind of in the middle there. It's a nice shape.

Leah: Great shape.

Nick: Yeah. But ...

Leah: I would love to have these text messages.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Note to self. Gonna start asking you about different numbers and your thoughts on them. So I get our letter-writer's point. I guess, why does this come off as rude, though? Or why does this bother our letter-writer?

Leah: Because sometimes you do feel bombarded. People will be like, "Hey, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then I just won't answer a lot of it unless it's a logistical thing.

Nick: Oh, you'll just skip some of the questions?

Leah: You can't. I can't.

Nick: Yeah, that's fair. I guess for me, if it's at the point where this really should have been an email, then yeah, that is too far.

Leah: Also, if you're gonna bombard me with multiple questions, I'm switching to audio text on the way back.

Nick: Okay. I guess that is a fair use of the audio memo. Yeah.

Leah: If you gave me, like, a whole thing, I gotta get my typewriter out?

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: Switching to audio text.

Nick: Yeah. Once that Smith Corona is on the desk, it's over. [tic-tic-tic-tic-tic] [laughs] And I guess just texting conveys a sense of urgency, and you do feel obligated to respond to texts in a way that you don't necessarily feel that time pressure on emails. Like, email does not require an instant response, whereas I feel like text does feel a little more time sensitive.

Leah: Which I actually want to start pushing back on that, because it's insane in this modern world that literally almost anybody can text us and then we feel like we have to get back to them.

Nick: Yeah. No, I don't feel like I need to be available to all people at all times.

Leah: Yes. One will be exhausted.

Nick: Yeah, one would. So our next question is quote, "A friend of mine passed away at a relatively young age last year. He has some phantom social media profiles that post updates on occasion. Just recently, his LinkedIn profile posted a work anniversary for him, and one of our former mutual coworkers from 15-plus years ago commented, 'Congratulations.' I debated if I should A) DM the commenter to let him know that he had passed; B) post a public comment to let others know who might be replying; C) let his widow know that the profile is still active so she can take it down; or D) just sit and chuckle at the thought of him continuing to grind away behind a desk into the afterlife. I went with D, because he'd have gotten a laugh out of that. Is there some etiquette around this?"

Leah: I definitely have a few friends who have passed away who somebody every once in a while posts on their social media accounts.

Nick: Yeah. No, this definitely happens.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So A, B, C, or D, what would you have done if you saw this happening?

Leah: I'll tell you the one I want to take off the list first.

Nick: Which is the public post?

Leah: Public post.

Nick: Yeah, we're not doing that.

Leah: And then I actually wouldn't let his widow know the profile is still active.

Nick: Yeah, that's really dicey. I mean, if you don't know them, I don't think we're reaching out to them.

Leah: And I would only do it if we were close, close friends, because there's so many feelings around that.

Nick: Yeah. So we're not going to reach out to the widow. So C is definitely off the table. I think for sending a DM, I don't know. I mean, is it your place to, like, deputize yourself on this?

Leah: I think that if the commenter is my friend ...

Nick: Ah, do I know the commenter? That's a good point.

Leah: And they obviously don't know that our mutual friend has passed away?

Nick: Right.

Leah: Then I will probably switch from whatever app I'm on to my phone and be like, "Hey, I just saw your comment."

Nick: And you better make sure that this person is really deceased.

Leah: Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, that would be ...

Nick: I mean, make sure that you are correct here.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Like, this is not a mistake to make.

Leah: No.

Nick: Because that would really not be good.

Leah: Then we're gonna get a whole other letter.

Nick: That's a whole different issue. Right. So yeah, I think the DM—yeah, I think option D was actually correct, because they would've gotten a chuckle out of it. I guess there's something nice about that.

Leah: Yeah. And there's also sort of a—like, I keep everybody who's passed away in my phone.

Nick: Yeah. No, I don't delete those contacts.

Leah: You know, they're still—that way they're still always still with us.

Nick: And there actually is a way, on LinkedIn at least, where you can report this to them and let them know, and they'll memorialize a profile. And so that might actually be something to do is like, oh, I'm just gonna let LinkedIn know, and then they can just do whatever their procedures are.

Leah: Yeah. I feel like LinkedIn is a whole other thing, because often, like, with an Instagram or a Facebook, family members will post from their loved one's account.

Nick: Oh, true, true, true. Yeah, the LinkedIn nature of this, the business nature of it, I think is a different flavor than a Facebook or an Instagram.

Leah: Yeah. It's a different flavor.

Nick: Right. Yeah, so just to bottom line it, I think unless you are close with either the person commenting or the deceased's family, if you're not that, then I think we just stay out of it.

Leah: Respectfully stay out of it.

Nick: Yes. Respectfully. Yes.

Leah: Not like a not my business, not my problem, but like a wiggle out. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. No, we're—we're taking a mindful step back.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Not inserting ourselves unnecessarily.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: So our next question is quote, "I have a mealtime etiquette question. When you're finished with a meal, should you push your chair in before walking away? I always thought yes, but a charming Victorian-era etiquette guide at a local restaurant says to leave it where it is."

Leah: Push it in.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think we push it in. What's funny, our letter-writer included a link to this restaurant's website and, like, their charming Victorian etiquette guide. And so, like, oh, how charming. But, like, that was a long time ago.

Leah: Now, like, the waitstaff have to run in and out and people gotta get through. And then, you know, what if somebody is coming by in a wheelchair and your chair is just sticking out?

Nick: Yeah. No, we want to push in our chairs, because it is courteous, it's mindful of other people. And it is also one of those things that gets weaponized. And so you should just be aware that if you don't do it, people who see you not do it do clock it and do judge you for it. It is considered like one of these character things, like not returning your shopping cart. Like, it's a small act, and if you don't do it, people notice.

Leah: That's so funny, because I was thinking—at first I was like, no, would people think that? But then I realized that I do push in people's chairs if they leave it out.

Nick: Yeah. No, it's a thing, and it does get weaponized. And so whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing, I will leave that up to the audience to decide, but it just—that's the reality. It gets weaponized, and you will be judged for it. And so if you do not want to be judged for it, then you should just push in your chair.

Leah: It's a walkway.

Nick: Also, do we really want to turn to the Victorian era for all of our etiquette?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Leah? As a woman, is that what you'd like to do? No, no. Don't speak.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] I mean, yeah—I mean, what a world. I mean, what a lovely time to be alive. Children are seen and not heard. You don't want to show too much shoulder or ankle. You know, I mean, like, what are we doing?

Leah: I do love, though, that our letter-writer would include links.

Nick: Yes, I love backup material.

Leah: And they'd be like, "This is where I got it from."

Nick: And I like that this restaurant is trying to just sort of be charming. And I get that. I get what we're doing. And there is something charming about, you know, Victorian-era decor and service. But also, actually, let's talk about the etiquette from the Victorian era, why actually it wasn't a thing in the Victorian era. Why it wasn't a thing to push in your chairs was because if you were in a house that had staff, they did it for you. And so by not pushing in your chair, it signaled your status. Like, I'm so wealthy, of course I'm not gonna be pushing in my chair. I have people to do this for me. It's like why the president of the United States doesn't carry their own luggage when they go on Air Force One. It's like, no, of course I have people for this. So, like, yeah, of course I have people to push in my chair. So we just don't live in that world—or I don't. I wish I had staff. Oh, my life would be so much better. But currently I do not have staff, so I do push in my own chairs.

Leah: Well, it would be so—I mean, it definitely gives that vibe. You just leave your chair out. You're like, somebody's gonna push it in.

Nick: Yeah. And somebody will. And that's rude because, like, you've just created work for somebody.

Leah: Somebody's gonna trip on it.

Nick: It's not great. Also, it looks sloppy.

Leah: It does look sloppy. It bookends the meal.

Nick: Yes. But also, you should push in your chair everywhere. You should push in your chair at a meeting, in a conference room, at a job interview. I cannot tell you how many people I've actually talked to who do interviewing for a living, interviewing job applicants. And one of the things they do note is whether or not the applicant pushed in their chair at the end of the interview.

Leah: Mmm! I feel so good. I've been pushing in my chair.

Nick: Yeah, because it's one of those subtle things that just signals, like, oh, you are mindful of those around you. And it makes me think, like, oh, if you're mindful in that small act, then clearly you must be mindful in other areas of your life—of work, of love, of friendship. And so, oh, you are somebody I wanna spend more time with, because I want to be around people who are mindful in that way. And so you have signaled to me with your etiquette that this is your character. And so that's why this is important.

Leah: I think my go-to is I push in my chair.

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: And then as I go to turn away, usually an article of clothing or my bag gets stuck on it.

Nick: Ah, wonderful.

Leah: And then I sort of like, catch my own neck, and I go—you know, your scarf pulls you back and then you go, "What?" And then the chair almost tips over. Then I catch it.

Nick: Oh my goodness!

Leah: [laughs] And then I go, "Oh!" And then I push the chair back in again.

Nick: Okay. Wow, you know how to make an exit.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So our next question is quote, "My husband and I and our baby were at a first birthday party in our neighborhood. It was a big shindig with amazing decorations. They even went so far as to switch their soap dispensers and photo frames to be on theme. There was a big table of lunch food and a gorgeous display of desserts next to it. We had to leave on the earlier side to put our baby down for a nap, and my husband grabbed a couple small desserts to eat before we left. I noticed that he was the only one who had touched the dessert arrangement. We hadn't yet sung Happy Birthday to the birthday baby. I was wondering: Is it customary to not touch a dessert display until after Happy Birthday has been sung? Do the hosts need to announce when dessert is up for grabs, or is it fair game if it's out on display?"

Leah: At first I thought it's out on display. It's like a buffet table.

Nick: Mm-hmm? At first you thought that.

Leah: And then I had the panic about the cutting the birthday cake.

Nick: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Leah: And then we haven't sung Happy Birthday yet.

Nick: We have not. Mm-hmm.

Leah: I really wish we had a picture of the dessert display.

Nick: Oh, does that matter?

Leah: Well, sometimes things are, like, back to back with the food table and you're like, oh, this is just—they expect you to just continue on and grab some dessert.

Nick: Oh, is the buffet continuous? Are the forks and the napkins on the other side of the dessert? That's a good question. I had not thought of that.

Leah: You know what I mean?

Nick: Where does the buffet end? Oh, it's like a Shel Silverstein story.

Leah: [laughs] Where the Buffet Ends.

Nick: Right?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Oh, isn't that interesting? Okay, because here's how I kind of arrived at this. So there are desserts and a birthday cake, and I assume these are two separate things. So we have a birthday cake and then we have, like, cupcakes and brownies and cookies and things like that, right? Is that what you're picturing?

Leah: Yes. This is not the birthday cake.

Nick: Right. Yes. The husband did not take a piece of birthday cake, just some of the other dessert items. Now if this wasn't a birthday, the desserts are actually totally free game. I feel like if this is not a birthday party and that's not the occasion and the desserts are out on display, have at it, right?

Leah: Yes, absolutely. If it's not a birthday party and they're out, get in it.

Nick: Now if it wasn't a child's birthday party, I do feel like maybe there's more flexibility on the non-birthday cake desserts. Right? Doesn't it feel like a little more? Like, if this is a 40-year-old birthday party and there's some brownies out, like, I feel like it's not a hard no.

Leah: I feel I'm going to agree with you. Yes, it feels different for ...

Nick: Although, you know what's really tainting my judgment right now? I love cookies so much. I think cookies is like my favorite thing. Like, a chocolate chip cookie or, like, a really good brownie? I really have very little self-control, and I feel like my etiquette training is seriously being tested right now, because I think the right answer is, like, of course you cannot touch the cookie at an adult's birthday party. Like, of course you can't. But I want to justify it so hard in my brain because I want the cookie. And then it'd be like, well, would anybody notice? Could I take one? Would I disrupt the display? Could I, like, slide a cookie out and still maintain the look of the table? Like, that's where my brain is going, and that is wrong. That is wrong.

Leah: Can I not ask the host, are we waiting to touch desserts until after we sing?

Nick: Okay. I like that. Yes, asking for permission. I think that's a good thing. And that's, I think, what the husband in this story should have done on the way out: Ask for permission. "Hey, we have to dash early. Would it be possible for me to take a sweet treat for the road?"

Leah: Because if it was my birthday party, I'd be like, "Eat it!"

Nick: Yes. Yes, I think as long as it's not the birthday cake.

Leah: Oh, definitely. Birthday cake is out.

Nick: But I think why the desserts are so problematic here is that all of the desserts are symbolically wrapped up in this symbolism of the birthday moment, right? So they should not be enjoyed until the symbolism of the birthday is acknowledged with the singing. And so until we have that moment of group acknowledgement, I think all the desserts are technically off limits.

Leah: It does feel like that's the correct answer, Nick.

Nick: And the only reason why they're on display is because in our modern lives, we do not have staff to take these desserts out when the time comes. I'm leaving them out, because as a host, I do not have time to deal with this later. So as I'm setting up my party, I'm just putting them out now. And that's just what modern hosting is.

Leah: At the same time, I'm sure the host doesn't mind that you grab a few sweet treats if you have to leave early.

Nick: Yeah, I think if they're grab-and-go items. I think if anything requires cutting, if there's a torte, if there's a pavlova, if there's anything that requires any cutlery, then I think that's a no. If it's a grab-and-go item—a cookie, a brownie—okay.

Leah: Maybe a lollipop?

Nick: A lollipop, yes. If there are some Dum Dums on the table, how whimsical!

Leah: [laughs] I love a Dum Dum.

Nick: And that's an interesting question. If there are sweets like that on the table—Hershey Kisses, Tootsie Rolls, that feels, like, allowed.

Leah: Feels like you could touch it.

Nick: Right? It feels like you could totally—like, where is the line between Werther's Original and a chocolate chip cookie?

Leah: Well, I would say the line between a torte and a Werther's is the cookie, and it's which side does the cookie fall on?

Nick: Where does it crumble?

Leah: Woo!

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Also, what is this party where we're serving Werther's Originals?

Leah: It's a good time.

Nick: I mean, bring on the Root Beer Barrels. Okay, so I feel like, yeah ...

Leah: I don't mean to interject something, but you said Root Beer Barrels, and I—in Missouri, I did stop. You know, the highway signs get you, and it was, like, advertising this candy store for ...

Nick: Oh, "500 miles, candy. 400 miles, candy."

Leah: And then I pulled off.

Nick: They got you.

Leah: And they got me. And then as I just pulled off, this sign got bigger and bigger and bigger. And what did I do? I got a bag of Root Beer Barrels.

Nick: They're a solid candy.

Leah: It's a great candy.

Nick: It's a grand candy. Yeah. Totally underrated. So where did we land on this? Technically, do not touch the dessert, but you may ask for permission, and reasonable consent shall not be withheld.

Leah: Also, where we clearly emotionally landed on this is that we want you to just have the dessert. [laughs]

Nick: Oh, take the cookie. Absolutely. Yeah.

Leah: But we feel obligated to say no.

Nick: And it's not like you didn't want to stay. You just had a kid, and you had to take them for a nap.

Leah: Which I'm sure since it's a kid's party, everybody gets that.

Nick: Yeah, it's a first birthday party, so they totally get it.

Leah: I almost feel like it's like if the child is young enough so they don't recognize that you're taking their brownies ...

Nick: Oh, interesting! Oh, there's a bell curve.

Leah: You know, because then it goes back to being like a 40 year old.

Nick: Right. Oh yeah. Oh, it's a Zen koan. If a child doesn't know that you've taken a cookie, have you really taken a cookie?

Leah: Well, that's the thing is that, like, with a kid, I don't want—I want them to feel like it's their day. We're standing in front of their table, we're singing their dessert.

Nick: Right. Am I diminishing their joy?

Leah: Yeah. I want them to feel special.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And it's, like, their moment, and then we're opening the dessert table because we sang to them.

Nick: Right. Okay.

Leah: But, like, I think probably as adults we don't mind so much. And so that's why it's fine if somebody, you know, goes in. And then I think, like, a one year old, not gonna remember.

Nick: Right. Yes. I think we're not gonna necessarily dampen their enthusiasm if we take a cookie. I think if you're gonna take the cookie, you gotta be slick about it. And you don't want to make the other guests know that you've done that.

Leah: Don't stand in front of it and touch everything.

Nick: Right. You're not going to eat this like Cookie Monster.

Leah: Just grab one and walk out. Look what we've done, Nick. We worked our way back to being like, "Just take it."

Nick: Just take the cookie. Yeah, if nobody notices? Yeah. Oh, I don't like where we ended up, but I think that's what would happen.

Leah: [laughs] I don't like where we ended up either. I don't like where we ended up either.

Nick: No, you're not allowed to take the cookie. Don't even ask. Tough it out.

Leah: Don't even ask?

Nick: Buy your own cookies on the way home.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: That's the etiquette answer. That's what you should do. You have cookies at home. I'm sure you have cookies at home. Just eat those.

Leah: Here's the thing. If my friends have to leave to put their—bring their kid for a nap, I'm gonna go grab a few cookies on the way out.

Nick: Yeah, here's a to-go bag. Here's a party favor. Here's a gift bag.

Leah: That's what I'm gonna do.

Nick: Okay. So our next question is quote, "My son is 11, and he has stumped me with a question. So we're turning to you for help. If you ask someone for something and they tell you no, but then discard it in the next few minutes, is that rude? This specific question is stemming from my son asking his brother for a milkshake and being told no, only for his brother to throw the entire thing away shortly after. However, our question is, in general, not limited to food."

Leah: I'm still thinking about the cookie question.

Nick: Okay. Any final thoughts?

Leah: Well, the fact is is that if I had a party ...

Nick: Mmm, okay.

Leah: Even with my limited—even with my limited space, if I didn't want people to touch the desserts—which to be honest, I probably wouldn't.

Nick: You wouldn't want people touching the desserts?

Leah: It is about my birthday.

Nick: Oh, you're a little territorial about it.

Leah: I would keep them in the kitchen.

Nick: Okay, so it's the responsibility of the host that if they do not want you touching it, they should not tempt you.

Leah: Well, because it's out, it's an extension of the buffet.

Nick: Yeah, actually, I—I'm coming back to that. Like, as a society, we all know you do not touch the birthday cake until the singing happens. We have all agreed on that as a society. This is a very clear rule. But for other various and sundry nibbles that are in the dessert category, yeah, it does feel a little extension-y of the buffet-y.

Leah: Yes-y.

Nick: Yeah. So I actually want to come back to that, because that is what I want to have happen, which is I want to be able to have a cookie. So—but I think that is correct, because unless there are instructions to the contrary or it's just hidden from view, yeah, I guess it is fair game.

Leah: And am I saying this because I was recently at a wedding where all the desserts were at the end of the buffet and I was the only person who took it back to my ...

Nick: Like, cake was there?

Leah: Not cake. Like, cookies, brownies.

Nick: Oh, you made this sound so hypothetical at the beginning of this little conversation. This is ripped from the headlines of your life.

Leah: Well, that was not a birthday party. That was a wedding.

Nick: But same idea. There was a ceremonial cake involved in this event, which we all know you're not allowed to touch until something happens.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So yeah, I think if desserts were out, then yeah, it is fair game.

Leah: They were right next to the rolls.

Nick: So people looked at you askance?

Leah: Nobody looked at me, but inside I thought, "Was that right?"

Nick: Yeah. No, you're totally in the clear. Yeah. No, it's on offer. And we had a question about this some time ago where somebody was scolded for taking a cookie at a buffet.

Leah: Yes. And then we decided, we came down on ...

Nick: Take the cookie.

Leah: It's out!

Nick: Have at it.

Leah: Have at it.

Nick: Okay. Wow. We really kind of made a couple 360s on this.

Leah: We've really been around a few times because also, if you didn't want me to touch it ...

Nick: Why are you tempting me?

Leah: ... cover it.

Nick: Bear traps. Electrify.

Leah: I'm not gonna pull up a tray cover. I'll tell you that.

Nick: Right. Yes. If it was covered, that sends a signal, "We're not touching this."

Leah: Yeah. They throw a napkin over it. I get it.

Nick: And I didn't sneak into the kitchen and take it from your back counter.

Leah: I didn't take it from your counter.

Nick: It was out!

Leah: And also, sometimes you only have so much room and you're like, "I'm gonna skip the dinner and just have the dessert."

Nick: Okay. So letter-writer, you're in the clear. You're in the clear. So back to our children, and we have a disagreement about throwing away milkshakes.

Leah: I think this adds an extra—what's interesting is that it's a brother situation.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that's material.

Leah: That is material, and it would probably be different—or would it be different. We could discuss—if it was not related people.

Nick: Well, if it's not related people, then this is wild. And super rude, incredibly rude, aggressively rude.

Leah: Yes. But if it's not related people, would I ask you for something that's yours?

Nick: [laughs] That's true. Would I ask you for your milkshake? Fair point. Yes. Now I think what is funny about this is, like, I could totally picture this happening. This is happening between siblings all around the world.

Leah: I feel like I've seen this happen.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is—this is very common where it's sort of like, "Hey, can I have, like, some of your French fries?" And you're like, "No." And then, like, throw them out. You can't have any of them. So, like, yeah, I get this dynamic, but it is not polite. It is not mindful.

Leah: If I ask somebody for something and they said no, and then they threw it out in front of me ...

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: ... I would take it ...

Nick: Out of the garbage?

Leah: No, I would take it—callback to stepping on someone's foot in Mongolia ...

Nick: Oh, okay!

Leah: ... as an act of war.

Nick: Wow! I mean, it is provocative.

Leah: It's provocative.

Nick: It's so provocative, because basically what is happening is I have signaled to you, hey, you have something of value to me, and I would like to know if I may have it. And you are saying, I acknowledge that you think this is valuable, and I am saying no. And I don't have a good reason for that.

Leah: I'm not only saying no, I'm putting it in the trash.

Nick: I'm making sure that you absolutely cannot have it.

Leah: Like, if I was like, "Nick, can I have your pickle?" I said, "Nick, do you like pickles?" "I don't like pickles. I'm not gonna eat my pickle." "Oh, can I have it?" "No." And then while maintaining eye contact with me, you drop that pickle into the trash can, we are at war.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that is a very spiteful move. Yeah, it's spiteful. Now you are allowed to say no if you are gonna use it or you may use it in the future, or it would be inappropriate for you to have it. Like, I don't want you to have it for good reasons, but, like, just to say no and then make sure you can't have it and I don't have a good justification other than I just wanna spite you? Yeah, that's not great.

Leah: Well, and throwing it away is the coup d'état.

Nick: Throwing it away definitely twists the knife. Yeah.

Leah: Complete side note, but not really. So many of our listeners have sent me incredible pickle videos.

Nick: What are we doing in these videos?

Leah: I'm getting ideas for my wedding. I saw a pickle fountain.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And a pickle deviled egg where you actually take the pickle bits out of the middle of the dill pickle. You pickle that with the egg and then you put it back in the pickle.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Uh-huh?

Leah: Just to name a few.

Nick: Okay. Well, pickles brings people together. So we take the 11-year-old son's side here, right?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Yeah, we do. I mean, your brother? Yeah, he's being a little mean. And so I think he's doing it out of love in some weird, twisted way. No? Can we see his side here? No.

Leah: Well, I think he's being a brother.

Nick: And I assume he's being an older brother, or is this younger brother behavior?

Leah: I have no siblings.

Nick: So you always get the milkshake.

Leah: I always have gotten the milkshake. I will always get the milkshake. That being said, if we were out and I wasn't finishing my milkshake and you said, "Can I have it?" I'd say, "Of course."

Nick: Yes. I guess at the end of the day, this is not coming from a place of generosity. And I guess I would want everybody in our lives, especially family, to come at situations with a sense of generosity. And I guess that's the problem here.

Leah: Also, it's not—to reiterate what you said earlier, if I didn't want you to have it because I wanted to have it or I wanted to have it later ...

Nick: Fine.

Leah: Fine.

Nick: Not a problem.

Leah: But now nobody's having it. I'm—what I'm saying to you is I would rather nobody had it than you have it.

Nick: Right. I definitely want to make sure that you do not derive any joy from this.

Leah: So that's pointed.

Nick: It's pointed. Yes. So you out there, do you have any pointed questions for us? Let us know! You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye.