Banning Wedding Gifts, Lingering Over Menus, Clipping Toenails on Airplanes, and More

Nick: Do you hold your fish knife the wrong way? Do you ask for no gifts? Do you take too long to order food? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right on to it with our amuse-bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So for today's amuse-bouche, I want to talk about the fish knife. Yes, the fish knife.

Leah: You know, Nick sent me a picture?

Nick: [laughs] Yeah.

Leah: And I was hoping I was gonna get to guess what it is.

Nick: No, you know what that is.

Leah: But now that you have said it, then I was so excited that I knew something.

Nick: Oh yeah. I wasn't gonna let you guess, because I know you know.

Leah: Well, the thing is is that had you asked me two months ago, I would've said that was a bread knife.

Nick: Funny you should mention it. So when Leah and I were on the Queen Mary 2 recently, we dined together. And every meal it seemed like you ordered fish, and every meal they gave you a fish knife.

Leah: Yes, they did.

Nick: And so I clocked that. I was sort of like, "Oh, interesting. All right. Leah with a fish knife. Okay. She's doing great. No notes."

Leah: [laughs] I don't know why I love "Leah with the fish knife," but that feels like a really good moniker for me.

Nick: Yeah. Or it's sort of like how you murder people in the game of Clue.

Leah: Oh! I hope so.

Nick: So I wanted to talk about it, because I realized that there's a lot to say about fish knives. I have a lot to say about fish knives. Of course I do. And so first, I think for anybody who's not familiar, describe the shape of a fish knife.

Leah: You're taking a butter knife.

Nick: Right. Okay.

Leah: And then you're changing the edge.

Nick: Okay, go on.

Leah: It's got more of a little—a little cut in it.

Nick: Yeah. Okay, it's kind of like a flatter butter knife, almost like a paddle, almost.

Leah: I see what you're saying.

Nick: Right? Leah's looking at a photo of it right now.

Leah: I see what you're saying, why you would say paddle.

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: That is not what I would say.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Miss Manners describes it as, "If someone had ironed an obelisk and bent it off to one side."

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Really? I don't think that's helpful at all. Obelisk?

Leah: The thing is ...

Nick: Ironing an obelisk and then bending it to one side?

Leah: It's just how people visualize things, Nick. I recently was asked to explain to somebody—I think this is just an interesting thing for you because I see it how she said it.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: How you said it, I don't see it at all. But recently I was asked to explain to somebody, if I met somebody who didn't know what brushing their teeth was and they didn't know what a sink was and they didn't know what a toothbrush and a toothpaste was, how would I describe it to them? And let me tell you, it took me 45 minutes.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: I mean, I described everything. And then I asked another friend who did it and they were like, "Oh, I did one second. I was like, well, this is a brush and this—" So I mean, people see things in very different ways.

Nick: Fair enough. Okay, so I will post a photo of a fish knife in the show notes in case you're not familiar.

Leah: And you might get "paddle." "Smooshed obelisk" turned to the side might do it for some other people.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, you find the visual that works for you, but I will provide photo evidence of what a fish knife typically looks like. So it's a bit of a paddle, often at the tip, there's gonna be a little bit of a notch, but it is not really a knife in the cutting sense, because it's basically just like a flat slab of metal. There's, like, no cutting edge on it.

Leah: It's like a separator.

Nick: Right. And we'll come back to that because that is what it's for. It is not actually a knife for cutting. And so the fish knife is actually quite new. It's really just sort of like 1800s, Victorian era, and it rose at the time where basically people were like, "Oh, how many unique things can we invent for the table? What foods can we invent only one tool to eat with?" You know, like, we need a marmalade spoon, which is separate from a jam spoon. Like, we need to have very specialized tools. And so this is where the fish knife came from. The fish fork was also invented at this time. There's less to say about the fish fork, because it's basically just a fork. Maybe there's gonna be one tine that's a little wider but, like, it's not as remarkable as the fish knife. So for today, mostly want to talk about the fish knife, but know that they come together.

Leah: And to all of the fish forks out there listening, I think you're remarkable.

Nick: [laughs] And so here we are, it's in the 1800s, and the fish knife becomes popular. And what's interesting is that the aristocracy of that day did not like it.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: It was considered very low class, because if you were the aristocracy, you inherited all of your silver. You didn't have to buy your silver. And so in the chest of silver that you had inherited through generations, you didn't have a fish knife. And so this was some very new thing, which was just like, ugh, those people and their fish knives!

Leah: New money. [laughs]

Nick: No, for sure. Actually, there is an insult, which is, "Ugh, they're the sort that has to buy their silver."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Isn't that amazing? And so yes, people bought their silver. They bought their fish knives, because prior to fish knives, the way you would actually eat fish is with two forks. You would, like, scrape with one and then eat with the other. And Miss Manners describes it like a Japanese rock garden and a rake. You're raking the fish like it's gravel. This is how she pictures it.

Leah: Mmm. I mean, that makes the most sense.

Nick: But now fish forks are obviously pretty common, even in the best households. I mean, nobody's eating fish with two forks anymore.

Leah: I just went through my whole mental filing cabinet and I—that is true. I've never seen somebody doing two forks on a fish.

Nick: Also, I'm trying to think, like, through movies, even period movies. I'm not sure. Nothing comes to mind of, like, two-fork fish eating. But that is how it was done until relatively recently when you didn't want to buy fish knives and fish forks.

Leah: That would be a fun movie watch party though, Nick. We just went through movies to see if anybody was doing two forks.

Nick: [laughs] Right? I mean, I'm sure there must be some examples. Listeners, if you know an example of a movie in which they are eating fish with two forks, let me know.

Leah: And I want to watch it and be like, "I know why."

Nick: So let's talk about how to use these instruments, because I think not everybody knows. And so first of all, we want to hold the fish knife more daintily than we might a steak knife. It's more like a pen. We're holding it like a pen.

Leah: I'm not gonna say anything because I do all the—I hold my pen so hard I have a bump on my hand. So ...

Nick: Okay. It's like a watercolor brush.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: How's that?

Leah: Okay, that's great. Thank you.

Nick: Okay. Because you do not need as much force with the fish knife, because it is not a knife in the knife sense. It is not for cutting fish. It's more for separating or flaking fish.

Leah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nick: That's really the idea. And it's for deboning. I mean, often you will get the fish knife when you actually have a fish with a bone in it, because the idea is you actually take the fish knife, and you kind of go parallel to the fish and you're kind of like just shimmying along the bone line. That's the idea. You're not, like, sawing anything.

Leah: I love shimmying along because it sounds like swimming along on the bottom of the beautiful briny sea. Bedknobs and Broomsticks.

Nick: And if you need a knife to cut fish, well, then you have a whole other problem in front of you, because of what has happened to this fish.

Leah: [laughs] Rubber city!

Nick: And I do find some people find it intimidating to order a fish that does come on the bone in a restaurant, because often it's deboned in the kitchen. But there are some times when it just comes with the bone. And sometimes those can be delightful dishes, like very often Dover sole, that comes on the bone.

Leah: I also think a lot of people are familiar with fish and bones because they've fished.

Nick: Oh, right. Yes. Okay. In my mind, I'm just thinking, like, fine dining, but yeah, you could also catch your own fish. Sure.

Leah: Yes. And they have bones.

Nick: And they do typically come with bones. Right. Yes. And so the way you would do it in formal dining, let's say you have the Dover sole. And so it arrives at the table. You look at it and think of it kind of like a baked potato. So you slice across horizontally, and then you kind of work your way from, like, the top left kind of across, and then you can kind of go down below, and then you would try to remove the bone, and then you eat the other side of the fish.

Leah: That's so interesting. I don't think I've ever flipped a fish. I think I've just worked my way through it.

Nick: Yes, it is better to eat one side, then gingerly remove the bone, and then continue eating. It's not great to flip it. Miss Manners will let you do it, but only if nobody's looking. So, like, if you can flip it over and no one sees you, then okay. She'd rather you not but, like, she'll allow it.

Leah: That's so funny, a fish flip.

Nick: So that is the fish knife, and that's how you use them. And Miss Manners, let's leave you with a quote from her. She says, quote, "If you can accomplish all this, you have the satisfaction of knowing that you have fought by the fish's own rules and won. You may then proceed to the meat course, glowing with triumph."

Leah: I don't know if the fish feels like you fought by its rules, but ...

Nick: [laughs] I know, it's a weird way to put it.

Leah: Yeah, I feel like the fish was like, "No ma'am."

Nick: But at least you will know that you used the fish knife and the fish fork correctly.

Leah: When I got that fish knife, I just went right in, didn't I, Nick? You saw me.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, no notes. No notes. You did great.

Leah: Just got put down and I thought, "It's gotta be the knife."

Nick: That's—yes, that's also true. Yes, it was the knife that was there. So that therefore is the knife to use. Yes, correct. Well done.

Leah: Thank you.

Nick: Well done.

Leah: I will get the food to my face.

Nick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're very resourceful. [laughs]

---

Nick: And we're back, and now it's time to go deep.

Leah: I mean deep and honestly something Nick has been wanting to get off his chest for a very long time.

Nick: [laughs] So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about wedding invitations that say "No gifts, please."

Leah: This really seems to be a thorn in Nick's side.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we just—we gotta talk about it.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: Okay. So I have thoughts. So I think many of us have experienced receiving an invitation in the mail for a wedding, and on the invitation it says, "No gifts, please." And bottom line, don't do it. That's rude. It's not done. Please don't do it.

Leah: I just—as a person who feels so much better having discussed things with people, I understand that it's rude because we're assuming people are going to bring presents and that's rude. I get it. But the thing is is that people feel like they need to bring a present. That is true. That is what actually is happening in the real world. So if I really don't want people to bring presents, how do I tell them that?

Nick: I will tell you. Thank you so much for asking. Yes, there is a way, because etiquette is not a monster. You are not obligated to accept a thousand crystal gravy boats into your home. No, you can have a wedding where it's no gifts. You can achieve this, but like so many things in etiquette world, the journey is as important as the destination. And so here's the journey. But first, let's just talk about, like, why is it rude? And you hit it on the head: because gifts are voluntary. You are not obligated to bring a wedding gift. It is not required. Now it is true, it is tradition that when you attend a wedding, you bring a gift. Both of these things can be true. And that's one of the fictions here is that, like, you cannot expect gifts, but also, like, you gotta give a gift. Like, both of these things have to happen. And so when you put that on the invitation, though, it does create this obligation when none existed. And that is why it's rude.

Leah: The thing is is that it's just calling out what's actually happening. So the idea that we all have to do this song and dance, it makes it so complicated for people who just need an answer. There are some people that just need an answer.

Nick: Right. So here's how you do it if you're the host and you do not want to have gifts. You do not put it on the invitation. In fact, you have nothing about gifts on the invitation whatsoever, because that is rude. So you have all the details—the date and time, we would love for you to attend. And so then what we do is we need to have some distance between the invitation and this information. And so in today's age, everybody has a wedding website. And so this is where that can live. This is where that lives.

Leah: So you're giving permission for it to live on your website?

Nick: I am absolutely doing that, because the invitation itself is unsolicited. I did not ask for this invitation. The very nature of an invitation is that I did not ask for it. And so something unsolicited has come into my home. That thing cannot have anything about gifts. But now I've decided, oh, I would like to attend this event. I am interested in learning more about what they want to do for gifts. Oh, they have a wedding website. Let me seek that out. I, guest, going out of my way to seek this information. I'm going onto the website, I'm looking for this information. Ah, there is the information. So therefore there's enough distance, enough plausible deniability, enough fiction where I'm okay with that.

Leah: I appreciate that, because I need to have a place where I can tell people.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then this also fulfills the invitation is just the invitation.

Nick: Yes, exactly. So that's it. That's all I just want to say about that. It's just don't put it on the invitation. Find another spot for that.

Leah: Well, I like that it's find another spot, not that there's no spot. We can still get the info out.

Nick: Now how you should word that? I mean, So often people say, like, oh, your presence is our present. I really don't like that. It just feels—I don't know. I don't love that phrase.

Leah: I mean ...

Nick: It's fine.

Leah: It's fine! People are just trying to find words. It's like, "We really just want to be with you. Please don't put yourself in a financial hole."

Nick: Well, yeah. You should put all of that. Yes, exactly. "Please don't put yourself in financial peril buying gifts for us. Please just show up without a gift." Yeah, you can put that on the wedding website.

Leah: I'm an over-explainer, so I'd be like, "Hey guys, I mean this genuinely."

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: And it would be like, "Hey guys—" and I mean that like Battlestar Galactica uses "sir." That's for everybody. This would be my whole thing. I really just want you there.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: I do not want you to think about getting me presents. And even though I deeply appreciate it, I really—so when I say this, I fully mean it. I'm gonna write the whole paragraph out. "Please just bring yourself. You don't need to give us anything else. And I mean it."

Nick: And then, "TLDR, no gifts please."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So anybody out there planning an event and you don't want gifts, this is what I suggest. Just use the wedding website, leave it off the actual physical invitation.

Leah: Feels like a happy medium.

Nick: That's what I'm looking for.

Leah: Okay!

Nick: Okay!

---

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is, quote—and today's questions are some leftover questions we received on the Queen Mary.

Leah: We really just got so many. It was such a treat.

Nick: We got a lot of questions.

Leah: So delighted!

Nick: Delighted! So the first is, quote, "How long is too long—or short—to look at a menu until it's considered rude?"

Leah: Well, I don't think there's a too short. You may just know exactly what you want.

Nick: Yeah, that was my question. Like, is there such a thing as too short and that's rude? No.

Leah: I was like, is the menu writer there? And they're like, "You should have spent a little longer on that."

Nick: I mean, I know a lot of people that look at the menu online in advance.

Leah: I was gonna say.

Nick: So they're ready to roll.

Leah: I guess the thought behind that would be that it makes other people anxious if you're totally ready to go and they're still looking.

Nick: Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. If you look at the menu and then slam it shut and be like, "I'm ready."

Leah: "All right guys, hurry up."

Nick: "Come on!"

Leah: I think we don't want to make other people feel like they only had two seconds as well.

Nick: That's true. Yes. But there is such a thing as too long. There's definitely such a thing as too long.

Leah: Yeah. Like, if the person comes over and you say, "I need one more minute," and then they come back again and then everybody else is ready.

Nick: Right. I'll give you two waiter visits. The third time we gotta—we gotta be ready.

Leah: Let's at least get our drinks and appetizers in.

Nick: Unless it's one of those restaurants that's like, oh, we need to actually put the whole order in at once.

Leah: Maybe we could jump in with our friend or relative and be like, "What are you deciding between?"

Nick: Oh, that's true. We can help them along. Yes. I guess I can't tell from this whether or not the person writing it is wanting to take a long time or is annoyed by other people at their party that they're taking too long.

Leah: It really could be either.

Nick: Really could be either way. But yeah, I think you have until the waiter comes back the third time. That's really the limit.

Leah: I even—and I want people—I mean, some menus are so extensive, but on the second time, I feel like we could be like, "Start at the other end of the table."

Nick: You could, although I would much rather you be ready to order than we get to you and you're still deciding. That actually for me is more awkward, because you're still reading and then the waiter's just, like, standing there and being like, "I have other tables." And that feels awkward.

Leah: That's true. They do have other tables.

Nick: I would much rather you just send the waiter away one more time and be like, "Come back. We'll have it together by then."

Leah: I also think that if you are a person that likes to think about it all, go through it. Don't get involved in a conversation when everybody else is ready to order.

Nick: Yes, you do need to do the, "Okay, let's decide what we're gonna have." Pause the conversation, focus on the menu, get the decisions in, close the menus, and then we can resume the conversation.

Leah: Yes, because I have been on the person's already come back for their second time and both of us weren't ready because we started talking again, and then we had to be like, we gotta focus. This is our job now.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And get it done. But if one person, if the whole table is waiting on one person and they're not paying attention, I think we can say to them, "Why don't you focus on the menu, so when they come back we're all ready?"

Nick: Oh! Ooh, could you land that? I guess you'd have to do it really nicely.

Leah: I mean, it has to be a really close friend or a family member. You can't say that to, like, a coworker.

Nick: Right. Yeah. Like, "Why don't you focus? Focus up."

Leah: The thing is if we're on a timeline and you're just, like, talking, talking, talking, and we haven't even put in our order and you're holding up the whole table—I also am—the hungrier I am, the shorter tempered I am.

Nick: Oh, good point. Yeah. So let's get those orders in, people.

Leah: That's when I would be like—I think the hint I would drop is like, "Let's at least get the appetizers in. I'm really hungry."

Nick: Oh, okay. So let's decide, because I'm gonna turn horrible in a few seconds.

Leah: You're about to see the transformation happen.

Nick: Okay. You're a gremlin.

Leah: Only less cute. Because those gremlins, you could see how they're kind of cute.

Nick: Well, don't feed them after midnight.

Leah: Yeah. I mean, I need to be fed after midnight.

Nick: [laughs] So I think that is the answer. You have until the waiter comes back a third time but, like, don't push it.

Leah: Yes. That seems fair.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Also, if the reason it's taking so long is because you don't know what certain things are, you're having a problem with the menu, don't be embarrassed. Just ask.

Nick: Oh, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you have clarifications, allergies, or you want to know how something's prepared, like, no problem.

Leah: Because I've definitely looked at menus where I was like, well, I don't know an ingredient in every single one of these things. Just ask or google it.

Nick: Although I feel like that's the opportunity for the second waiter visit.

Leah: Oh, I wouldn't do it on the third. I'm just saying if that's why you're stalling, because you feel insecure about it, don't be insecure. Just ask.

Nick: Oh, great point. Yeah. Sidebar, I have noticed that a lot of restaurants do go out of their way to put names of foods that are not familiar. Like, nobody knows this obscure cheese name or, like, no one's heard of this fish, or some weird translation from another language. And it's sort of like, you know we don't know what this is.

Leah: [laughs] You know we don't know.

Nick: You know we don't know. What are you doing? What are you doing? And I think it is important just to have the confidence to be like, "I don't know what any of this is. Would you please, like, describe this dish for me?"

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And the server knows, because they didn't know either until it was explained to them earlier in the evening. You know, like, nobody knows. So yeah, don't feel intimidated by a restaurant, like, using weird vocabulary. Even if it's common vocabulary, if you don't know what a black truffle is versus a white truffle, ask. Just ask to have that clarified for you. No problem. Because how else would you learn if you don't ask?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Totally fine. Yeah. Don't—yeah, don't worry about that.

Leah: I just want to make sure people do not let not knowing keep them from their food. Just ask.

Nick: [laughs] Good point. So our next question is, quote, "When on a date with a fellow, is it rude if he doesn't pay for your ride home afterwards?"

Leah: I don't know. Are you paying for his ride home afterwards?

Nick: Oh, is that—is that the question?

Leah: I'm all for chivalry.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: And I liked being taken out on a date.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And I like people to pay for me and buy me things.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: That being said, I don't know if we—it's rude if someone doesn't pay for us to go home.

Nick: Right. Yeah. I mean, to pay for the actual ride, let's put a pin in that for a moment. But I think there is this sort of vibe that if we had a date, Leah, and we had dessert and we're leaving the restaurant, and I basically leave you at the curb before you got into a cab, I was like, "Bye! All right. Good luck getting a cab." I think for some people that would feel a little like, oh, that's—that's the end of this?

Leah: Oh, no, no, no, no. I want to be walked to the cab. I want to—for my safety, I want to be seen me getting into the cab.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But I'm not expecting them to lean in and pay for the cab.

Nick: Right. Yeah. So I could see how the paying for the ride is sort of the extension of this concept, but it is sort of an extension. It's sort of a new chapter of that.

Leah: I don't know. I've also lived in places where it's like everybody's taking the subway.

Nick: Right. Yeah.

Leah: Or everybody has a car.

Nick: Yeah. It would be sort of weird if somebody swiped their MetroCard for you and was like, "All right, paid for your subway ride home."

Leah: Which, that's cute. But also it's like, are they getting me a Lyft and then I'm putting my address into their phone? It just feels so fraught. Like it's like ...

Nick: Oh, that's true.

Leah: ... I want to be responsible for getting myself home.

Nick: Right. I do appreciate the "Hope you got home safe. Text me when you get home."

Leah: I want somebody to walk me to the car. I want them to see me into the car.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: But me getting to my home feels like that is my job.

Nick: Okay. Right. Including paying for it.

Leah: Including paying for it.

Nick: Right. Now let's put it this way. Dating is all about finding somebody who matches your style, your vibe, your values. And so I would say, letter-writer, if it's important to you that the gentleman pays for your ride home, if that's something you want—and there are plenty of gentlemen out there who would agree, then that's who you need to be looking for. You need to be looking for the gentleman who wants to pay for your ride home, and that's the pairing you need. So I would say this is not some universal obligation. I don't think everybody needs to do this, but if that's what you want, that's fine. I think that's totally fair.

Leah: Yes, I agree with that entirely. I also think, like, say you're the person who went much further for them.

Nick: Ah, okay.

Leah: Because maybe they were, like, somewhere and they were like, "Here." And then they should say, "I'll get you a cab."

Nick: Yeah. Or I could even see, like, we had dinner and they're like, "Oh, but you know, there's this other spot around the corner that has really good ice cream. I know you said you have an early morning tomorrow but, like, let me just keep you out for another half hour. You know, let's just get ice cream." Then it's sort of like, okay, you could then maybe pay for the ride home because you kept me out a little later than I wanted to be out.

Leah: I like that very much. And I think under those circumstances it makes sense. But I think we just are meeting somewhere that we've both agreed upon for dinner. I think you want to treat me for dinner. You know, historically women spend way more money prepping for a date.

Nick: Yeah, that's true. So yeah, dinner is the least you can do to try to even the score.

Leah: Yeah. And I just for some reason, I don't know why it hits me so wrong, because it is just a lovely gesture. I just sort of—it's interesting for me to sit with this and think about it. I want to know what our listeners think.

Nick: Yeah. Listeners, yeah, what do you think about this one? Should somebody pay for your ride home after a date? Is that sort of something that you want, that you think is a good idea? Hmm!

Leah: I mean, if somebody wants to pay for my ride home, lovely. But the idea that I would think that it was rude because they didn't?

Nick: Right.

Leah: Those are two very different things.

Nick: Those are two very different things. Yeah, if you just want to, like, give me cash, I guess I'll take cash. Sure. But yeah, I wouldn't think it was rude that you didn't pay for my Uber.

Leah: Yeah. I would think it was lovely if he offered. It's the do I think it's rude if you aren't—don't pay for me to get home?

Nick: Right. And it is not. So that's our final ruling.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: Okay. So you out there, do you have questions for us? Let us know! You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

* Nick:* And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent*.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Oh, Nick, you know, I had two vents and then I was like, which one?

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So it's definitely a vent. And I think I'm gonna go AI assistant.

Nick: AI assistant. Okay. What has happened?

Leah: Let me tell ya. I feel like it's gotten a little out of control how many times we have to confirm we have a doctor's appointment.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, there must be so many no-shows that they just feel like bombarding you with emails and texts. And they're—the texts are quite threatening. They're like, "You better write back!"

Leah: [laughs] Yes!

Nick: You better write us back. Otherwise we're—that's it.

Leah: "And I want it in capital letters and I want it in the next 30 minutes. And then I'm also gonna send an email, if you could click that link as well."

Nick: And an automated phone call.

Leah: And an automated phone call. So I have a doctor's appointment coming up.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I confirmed via text.

Nick: Yep.

Leah: I got the email.

Nick: Yep.

Leah: I then get a phone call, which as we know, I'm no longer picking up phone calls.

Nick: [laughs] Right.

Leah: So goes into voicemail. Voicemail says, "Please call us back to confirm."

Nick: Oh!

Leah: Now I gotta confirm three times.

Nick: Yeah. I have to call you?

Leah: I don't want to make a phone call. I got to make a phone call. I go, "Let's just call. I don't want to show up. I don't want to drive all the way out." You know, it's in Glendale. Like, show up. "Oh, you didn't call. You only confirmed twice. Two out of three times, we cancel it." So I call back it during working hours.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I go into the automated system.

Nick: Love it.

Leah: I say, "Representative, representative, representative." I get—you know, you're begging. "Please let me speak to a human!" And then nope, this is the AI assistant. I forget what her name was. "Hi, this is—I'm your AI assistant. I can confirm for you." So then I had to go through my name, the spelling of my name, my birthday, my ad—the whole—45 minutes of my life. Not really, but it felt like that. It was like The Iliad and The Odyssey. And then we get to it and she goes, "I can't confirm that. Now you have to leave a message with me."

Nick: Ugh!

Leah: So then I have to go—I have to give all that information all over again.

Nick: I mean, so annoying!

Leah: And then at the end of it, she says, the AI assistant says, "I'll pass that on. They will call you back."

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: So then I get another phone call, and I see it and I go, "We're picking up. I gotta—I can't ..."

Nick: Absolutely.

Leah: But I pick up and I confirm, and the woman says, "Oh, we got a message." And I said, "Oh yeah. No, no, no, no. I was just confirming your message."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And I was like, "The AI assistant—" and then she and I had, like, a great laugh. We just laughed for, like, 45—because I'm sure she's like, why are we doing this?

Nick: Yeah. I mean, it's such a waste of time.

Leah: It's such a waste of time. You're taking away people's jobs. Like, they were much better at it than the AI assistant.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I feel like one confirmation is enough. So whatever method you want, if it's via email, via text, via phone, like, one is good. If you do it, one of those, it should just count.

Leah: One of those. I don't need to do three, and the third one doesn't have to be like a—like a whole choose your own adventure that I have to work my way through. I can't. I was like, what just happened?

Nick: That is truly rude, because it's so disrespectful for your time.

Leah: It's so much time!

Nick: And what's so annoying about it is that those of us who are polite, on-time, responsible people that make our appointments, we are paying the price for the small minority of people who forget appointments, are no-shows, don't cancel, et cetera. Like, that small minority is punishing the rest of us. That is not fair.

Leah: I do think there should be like, oh, this is a person who's never canceled. They've never not showed up. Maybe they can go into the category of people that don't have to confirm three times.

Nick: There should be a VIP tier of gold star patients who just know how this works.

Leah: Yes! I've never missed an appointment!

Nick: There should be like a credit score for appointments.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Oh, that's a great—Leah, that's a great idea. It's sort of like a social credit score.

Leah: Please!

Nick: How often do you show up on time? How often are you a delightful guest at a party? I feel like there was a Black Mirror episode about this, so maybe it actually won't be a good idea, but ...

Leah: I'll just start with, I don't even need all that. I just need has this person missed their appointments they said they were coming to?

Nick: Yes. Do they have a perfect attendance record? If so, one method is fine for Leah Bonnema.

Leah: Oh, I fibbed. I didn't fib. I forgot. I showed up to an appointment late, and it is because they confirmed me in a different time zone. And for some reason their equipment made it the time zone I was in instead of the time zone—so then I showed up to the time zone they confirmed me for.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: It was a 12:30 appointment. I said, "Yes, I'll be there at 12:30." And then I got back to LA. I was on the East Coast, and it was actually a 9:30 appointment. But it was their calendar that messed up.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Well, for me, I would also like to vent. So we often talk about this thing as sort of like a shorthand for, like, horrible things that happen on airplanes. But honestly, it's really rare. Like, I flew more than 60,000 miles last year. I didn't have it happen once. So, like, I'd like to think that this is exceedingly rare, but ...

Leah: I can't wait to hear what it is.

Nick: But when I was flying home from London back to New York after I was with you, Leah, I heard it. The unmistakable sound.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: You know what I'm talking about?

Leah: No, I don't.

Nick: No?

Leah: Oh, do I know?

Nick: Yeah, that. That sound. That little metallic clip clip clip of a nail clipper.

Leah: [gasps]

Nick: Yes. And not our fingernails. No! Why would we clip our fingernails on an airplane?

Leah: No! No!

Nick: No. No, no. We had our little piggies, just our little toesies out.

Leah: No, we didn't.

Nick: We sure did. And I think there's actually something interesting about toenails in that those fly farther and more unpredictably than fingernails.

Leah: [laughs] Because they're thicker.

Nick: Is that what it is? They have some different aerodynamic property.

Leah: They do. It's so true.

Nick: And the horror of that sound and the knowledge that at any moment something could hit you. I just—it was so gross. And it was happening during the safety briefing.

Leah: No!

Nick: And this person was at the exit row. I mean, all that legroom? Of course you have to take advantage of that legroom. I mean, you'd be a fool not to take advantage of that legroom. But the flight attendant was standing right there.

Leah: No!

Nick: No shame.

Leah: I do not know how the flight attendant ...

Nick: They must be so immune to it. They must be. I mean, they—they were so professional. They just were like, here's how you do the buckle. Here's how we do the oxygen mask. We're just gonna ignore that this is happening two feet away from me. Yeah. But I just—why? Why—why are we saving our toenail clipping for this moment? Is there no other opportunity to do it? Why now? Why? Why there?

Leah: I'm in shock.

Nick: Why?

Leah: Where did— what did they do with the clippings?

Nick: What do you think they did, Leah?

Leah: Well, I hope they did it in, like, a bag and then they kind of ...

Nick: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. They were collecting every toenail. Yeah.

Leah: They just left it there? I mean, I would—I would want to vomit.

Nick: The ones that they could see, but who knows what else is happening?

Leah: The one that, like, flew into your eye?

Nick: Yeah. Or my food or ...

Leah: Oh no!

Nick: My sweater. Yeah. I mean ...

Leah: Can you imagine sitting next—to being the person sitting next to that person?

Nick: I mean, I just—I blacked out. It was sort of like this is not happening. Because it so rarely does happen.

Leah: No.

Nick: Like, it really is not that common.

Leah: I haven't seen that on a plane.

Nick: Right? I mean, it's just—it's not that common, but when it does happen, it is really one of the worst things. It just is. It just combines so many things that I don't want happening at once. It's the noise of it all.

Leah: Oh, it's a horrible noise.

Nick: It's the mystery of the pieces. It's the feet. It's just the—it's—none of it is good.

Leah: No, it's like a visceral ick.

Nick: Yeah, it's not good.

Leah: It would be so hard not to yell, "Is this really happening?"

Nick: Well, at first I heard the little clippy sounds. I'm like, surely other things make that sound. No, nothing else makes that sound. It's truly unique.

Leah: It's—that's a horror movie. That would be a really funny black and white if we could do a little sketch.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. I mean, hopefully they meet their demise at the end of it.

Leah: Oh, Nick! What a nightmare!

Nick: I know. So just as a reminder, in case any of our audience needs that reminder.

Leah: They do not. Not our audience.

Nick: I know. This is what's so disappointing. The people that need to hear this, they're not listening.

Leah: That's the same person who is canceling, and that's why we're getting three text messages. It's the same person.

Nick: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's probably the same person. So disappointing. It's just disappointing.

Leah: Oh, it's a whole lot more than disappointing.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: It's actually really physically graphic. It's graphic.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, it's—it's not cool.

Leah: [laughs] Nick Leighton says not cool.

Nick: Not cool. Not cool.

---

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Well, I learned that—and it really gives me a giggle, that at one point the aristocracy was like, "Oh, these new money people buying their—buying their silver. Ugh! Ugh."

Nick: "Fish knives? Ugh. How déclassé!"

Leah: How déclassé!

Nick: And I don't think I learned anything about you today. I don't think I did. I just think I was reminded of how delightful you are.

Leah: Oh, Nick!

Nick: I know. I'm adorable.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick!

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, I want your physical mail. Now our PO box is always open, and we welcome your letters, but sometimes I know you need a personal invitation. So please go to our website, find our address. Or it's at the bottom of every email we send. And send us some mail. I want to see your handwriting. I want to see a stamp from you. I want to get a little correspondence going. So please send me a letter.

Leah: Nick really—he needs your letters.

Nick: I need it. It's sort of like actually important to my wellbeing. It is. Yeah, this is not like a casual ask. This is actually for my mental health. So just do it for me.

Leah: So no pressure, but you're keeping Nick afloat emotionally.

Nick: [laughs] And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

---

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: You know, Nick, I'm gonna do a cordials of kindness to PBS.

Nick: The Public Broadcasting System?

Leah: Yes, I'm doing it to PBS. I was raised on Public Broadcasting System, but right now they are just I would say wrapping me in some just really cozy, amazing mysteries that I'm loving so much.

Nick: Oh, okay!

Leah: And it's really nice to, like, have a weekend where you're like, I need a casual weekend. I'm gonna clean the house. I'm gonna be with the dogs. And then you're like, you know what? I'm gonna watch that whole new PBS mystery. And I'm just so grateful for PBS.

Nick: How nice! Well for me, I would like to read a nice email we just got, and it's, quote, "Last night, I had a dream about possible romantic interest from a much younger man. While I was attracted to him, I felt there was just too much of an age difference. Then I overheard him listening to Nick and Leah on the Raised by Wolves? podcast. I decided we were like-minded and decided to throw proverbial caution to the wind."

Leah: I love that so much! That is so fantastic.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. So we're now in your dreams. We're in your dreams.

Leah: I mean, I love that, because our listeners are in my dreams. I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll go "Aah!" And I'll think about a question, or something that we said or something that somebody's dealing with. I'm also delighted that we are sort of like the, "Oh, okay. I'll give them a try."

Nick: "Okay. They're a good person. Yeah. He might be a little young for me, but he listens to this podcast, and so let's give it a shot."

Leah: "He knows Nick and Leah, so we're gonna give it a shot." I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Nick: I love everything about this email. So thank you for that. And you out there, as a reminder, we love getting your mail. So please send us your notes and your dreams. We love it.

Leah: We love it. That's so wonderful!

Nick: So thank you.

Leah: Thank you.