Meeting Amy Vanderbilt, Acknowledging Mysterious Gifts, Retrieving Lost Phones, and More

Nick: Do you make people accommodate your schedule? Do you give baffling gifts? Do you make your friends drive you everywhere? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Here are things that can make it better

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So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: How do you keep coming up with them, Nick? I don't even know.

Nick: So for today's amuse bouche, I want to talk about Amy Vanderbilt.

Leah: Oh, okay!

Nick: And we reference her quite often. Like, she's in the same pantheon as Emily Post, Judith Martin, Letitia Baldrige. But what do you know about her?

Leah: I mean, I know nothing. [laughs]

Nick: Okay. Well, let's talk about it.

Leah: I'm a blank— Nick, if you haven't told me, I don't know.

Nick: That's true. Yeah. Oh, you have not independently researched Amy Vanderbilt? Oh, how curious! So she was definitely, like, the definitive voice on etiquette in, like, the '50s and '60s. Like, post World War II, she was it. And she wrote a book called Amy Vanderbilt's Complete Book of Etiquette, published in 1952. And it was 700 pages. I mean, like, it is a big book.

Nick: And when you hear the name "Vanderbilt," you probably think of Cornelius Vanderbilt, the Commodore. He's, like, the railroad guy, Grand Central, tons of money. And Amy, I think, kind of leaned in on this. I think it definitely helped her because, like, of course, she's a Vanderbilt, but she is, at best, a first cousin three times removed. So she does have a common ancestor, a farmer from Long Island in the 1600s. But then from there, like, the family tree, like, totally splits. And there's a lot of Vanderbilts. So she did not have any of the cash, she did not have the golden age opulence of her upbringing that I think a lot of people may have attributed to her.

Nick: Her father was an insurance broker, and she was born on Staten Island in 1908. And then she studied journalism at NYU, and then one of her first jobs is she started as a journalist for the Staten Island Advance, which is, like, a paper there, which still exists. And she did social coverage, which, interestingly, so did Judith Martin. Like, Judith Martin, Miss Manners, she got her start covering parties for the Washington Post. So interesting how both of these etiquette mavens sort of had that similar journalism background, started with, like, the social pages.

Nick: And then she got into PR, and she actually became the president of a PR firm. And that PR firm actually did a lot of, like, work with publishers. So she was, like, totally in the publishing world. And Doubleday, a big publisher in New York, wanted to do an etiquette book, like a modern etiquette book because one did not exist. And so they hunted around for somebody who they thought could actually write it. And they wanted somebody who could write it, somebody who had the experience, the social experience, had the business experience. And so they thought that Amy was the right person. And I'm sure she was well known in those circles. And so sort of like, "Amy, why don't you write it?" And she didn't want to originally.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: She says that she had the same feeling about etiquette that a lot of people do, which is like, "Oh, that's fussy. That's not for me." And she says quote, "I didn't want to be a disagreeable woman who everybody feared."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Like, that's what she thought about etiquette, which, like, oh, how interesting. But then I think they convinced her, and so she, like, went to a cabin in the woods, and for five years she researched the book.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: And she started with, like, stuff that she knew personally, so, like, social stuff, raising children. And then she actually reached out to experts for, like, the other stuff. Like, there's a whole section about heraldry— crests and shields.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: Which, like, who needs to know this? And obviously, like, she didn't have this knowledge, so, like, she reached out to heraldry experts for this. So that's why this book took so long. And then as soon as it came out, total instant bestseller. And this makes sense because when you think about, like, the United States in the early '50s, this is post-World War II, this is a rising middle class, this is social mobility. This is tons of women entering the workforce and new roles. And all the traditional social structures were changing. And the idea of, like, oh, we're hosting a dinner party, which would take weeks of planning, like, we don't have time for that anymore. No, that's not what entertaining is anymore. And so there was a need for, like, oh, this new way of doing it.

Nick: And she became so popular. She had a TV show called In Good Taste, and she had a radio show, which is The Right Thing to Do. And then she had a column that was syndicated. So, like, super influential. Like, she was your go-to person. She even had a cookbook that was illustrated by Andy Warhol before he was famous.

Leah: Oh, wow! Oh, wow!

Nick: Right? Yeah.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Super fun. I mean, it's super fun. And so in thinking about, like, Amy versus the other people, like, versus Emily Post, Judith Martin, I think she really emphasized the idea of gracious living. Like, that was, like, her thing. And even the subtitle of her book, Amy's Guide to Etiquette: A Guide for Gracious Living.

Leah: Mmm.

Nick: And so she really was about, like, comfort and common sense and, like, being flexible. She was not a strict rule follower, so I think she would kind of resonate in that way for you.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And she was very practical. And she saw good manners as like a tool for social harmony and respect and not as snobbery. And there's a great quote from the book which is, "Some of the rudest and most objectionable people I've ever known have been technically the most quote-unquote 'correct.' Some of the warmest, most lovable, have had little more than an innate feeling of what is right towards others."

Leah: And I like this Amy.

Nick: Right? Yeah, I kind of like that sensibility. So then Amy dies at 66.

Leah: So young!

Nick: Yes. And there are some questions about what happened. And I will post some links in the show notes if you are curious. But once she died, that was it, there was no successor to her column. It just ended. Everything just ended. And today, there's, like, virtually no trace of her online. I am unable to find full episodes of her TV show. I have not been able to find her radio show. It's even hard to find her syndicated columns.

Nick: And there was an interview that was in the Library of Congress system, and she actually contributed to the World Book Encyclopedias. And World Book, remember them?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: They had a whole TV program called Beginnings, where they interviewed people who, like, contributed chapters. And they did an interview with her. And this is in, like, the Library of Congress collection, but it's, like, on film still. And they're like, "Well, you can come down to DC and watch it here if you'd like." And I'm like, "Um, that's a little inconvenient. Like, I— it's not a hard no. Like, I would absolutely get on a train to watch a 30-minute video of Amy Van— like, I'd do it. But I did make arrangements to have it digitized. This process took a year, so that is why we are now talking about it today. I started this amuse bouche a year ago.

Leah: This is wild!

Nick: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I really— I've really been giving this a lot of thought. But I finally got a copy of the video. I had it digitized for everybody, so it is now publicly available. I will post a link. You can actually watch this if you'd like.

Leah: Nick!

Nick: And yes, you are welcome. Send me a thank-you note. And it was very interesting because I had never really seen her as her. I saw, like, her doing a Lucky Strike cigarette commercial and, like, a Glade air freshener commercial, but I never got to see her talking about just, like, etiquette. So that was very interesting. And I'm not sure if I got a great sense of actually who she was. Like, it definitely made me curious, but I definitely felt like I was not getting the full picture of, like, who this woman was.

Nick: But she said some very interesting things. And one was that she says she was an early reader. So she started reading at five, and she was surrounded by writers in her community when she grew up. And so she always had, like, this very literary background. But she also says that she was a lonely child and she was not a happy child. And she says, quote, "I think when people are not happy, they are sensitive to other people— happy and unhappy. They're perhaps more conscious of it."

Nick: And so I thought it was very interesting that she thinks about this sense of empathy, this deep sense of empathy. And I think that actually really comes through in her etiquette advice, that she really does have an empathy that— not that the other writers, the Emilys, the Judys don't have, but, like, I think she's got more of it, maybe. I just thought that was kind of interesting. She also tells a story about how in elementary school she was in a class with a lot of first-generation Americans who were from Italy. And they had trouble reading. And because she was an early reader, her teacher put her in a room with these people and said, like, "Teach them to read."

Leah: Oh!

Nick: And so from an early age, Amy says that she had the opportunity to know and understand the problems of people who had different background from herself. And so I think that's also very interesting from an etiquette perspective, and how early that happened. So totally interesting. It's worth sort of watching this because she was so influential in America and American society, it's kind of interesting to see, like, the woman who made it all happen. And two final thoughts: In her office at her home in Connecticut, there was apparently a plaque above her desk that was in Latin. And I'll translate it. It basically said, "See everything, choose your battles, act selectively."

Leah: Ooh!

Nick: And it's like, oh, isn't that good etiquette advice?

Leah: Very nice.

Nick: And when I saw that she had this Latin quote, it made me think, like, oh, there's a lot more to this woman that I'm seeing in this interview. It just felt like, oh, there's so much more than this public persona. And the final thought, which I think also sort of emphasizes this empathy thing that we get from Amy is, quote, "Good manners have much to do with the emotions. To make them ring true, one must feel them, not merely exhibit them."

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: Right? Which is interesting because I often say, like, etiquette doesn't care what you feel inside. It just cares how you act. Ideally, what you feel inside matches how you act. Like, that's the ideal but, like, not required. But for Amy, it is required. It does matter that you embody the good manners. So Amy, Amy Vanderbilt.

Leah: I loved it! I also love that she went to a cabin. You were like, "Oh, it's so Thoreau." You know what I mean?

Nick: Oh, yes. And the cabin has a great name. She called it "Daisy Fields."

Leah: [laughs] I love it.

Nick: Isn't that wonderful?

Leah: I love it!

Nick: "Yes, I'm gonna go out to Daisy Fields this weekend to work on my novel." Yes! Oh, we should all have cabins with good names.

Leah: Please!

Nick: So that's Amy Vanderbilt.

Leah: Amy!

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Honestly, I feel like this is a part two.

Nick: Yeah, I think this might be a part two. So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about the power dynamics of scheduling.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: And we got a great question from a listener, which is quote, "Recently, I had to schedule a bunch of phone and Zoom interviews for a big project, and I took advantage of a new calendaring app to try and eliminate all the back and forth messages of working out times and dates among several people's calendars. I thought it all went quite seamlessly, but on LinkedIn today, one of colleagues posited the idea that there are 'implicit power dynamics' at play with calendaring apps. For example, a junior colleague presenting his or her calendar to a senior colleague might come across as entitled, as if the junior colleague's time is somehow more important than the senior. I flashed on one instance where one of the people I reached out to for an interview, rather than selecting a time on my calendar, just sent me back his own calendar link. I rolled my eyes a bit at this, but it was not a big deal. Anyway, this has been an etiquette record scratch moment for me, and I would truly love for you to weigh in."

Leah: [sighs] Oh.

Nick: It's a good topic.

Leah: It's a great topic.

Nick: Because yeah, there is a dynamic at play: Who needs to accommodate whom? Whose schedule is more important?

Leah: But at the same time, if you've used these apps for scheduling groups, it is so much easier.

Nick: It totally is. Yeah. And for anybody who doesn't know, basically what happens is I create a calendar, and on this calendar, I basically just put when I'm available for something. And you could just then go in, and you would see all the availability, and then you would just pick what works for you and you would, like, schedule it, and then it ends up on my calendar. And, like, how great.

Leah: And so if there's, like, six people, then it will just pick out which is the one that has the most availability of the most people.

Nick: Yes. If everybody's linked together. Yeah, exactly.

Leah: Which really cuts some time down.

Nick: Yes. As we discussed in a recent episode ...

Leah: Yes.

Nick: ... scheduling the meeting is, like, worse than the meeting.

Leah: Significantly. Significantly.

Nick: Right? So I don't necessarily mind this technology just in general, but I think the way you give your calendar, I think that's where the rubber can meet the etiquette road. Because I think if you present the calendar link, which is like, "Here's when I'm free. You figure it out," that can definitely feel, like, a little like my calendar is more important than yours.

Leah: And I also think— I mean, this is where she was like, "Here are the times I'm available." And then they were like, "Here's my calendar." It's like, that wasn't the right way to respond to that.

Nick: No. Unless I'm more important than you are, none of your times worked for me, and so here's my calendar. You make it work for you. That's how I read that.

Leah: Yeah. Because well, our letter-writer is the person scheduling the interviews. So it's like, if you want the job, I would think that you would figure this out.

Nick: Oh, that's— oh, I missed that detail. Yeah, so if I'm interviewing you, Leah, like, "Oh, please interview for a job at my company. Here's my availability," and you send me a link back to your availability. Oh, that would catch my eye.

Leah: Yeah. I would be like, "Oh, hmm. Seems like a red flag."

Nick: Yeah. Oh, I mean, total red flag. Yeah, total red flag. So I think there is something to it, but I think if you are the junior person and you want to schedule with somebody perceived as higher up, I think you could send the link which is like, "Hey, in case this is easier for you, here's my availabilities in this app. But obviously, if none of these times work for you, let me know what works and obviously we'll make it work."

Leah: Yeah, that's a nice way to say it.

Nick: Right? So I think do that.

Leah: Because at the end, we are saving people time.

Nick: Ideally, yes. Yes. I think it would be presented as a tool and not as a demand. That's the key.

Leah: Yes, I like that. I also recently did one that was a little bit different, where it was, like, a group of 10 of us, and the person setting up the meeting said, "Here's three times." And then you just went in and you put, like, an X in the— next to which one you were. And then it sort of let the person scheduling it know where the most Xs overlapped.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And then so people weren't sharing calendars. They were just like, "Here's my availability." That was so easy.

Nick: So that's it.

Leah: So there it is.

Nick: Problem solved. Great.

Leah: And I love our letter-writer. I think they're trying to make it easy for everybody.

Nick: Yes, I love that, and I think there should be more of this. And as a reminder, as a follow up to our previous episode about meetings, do we need to set up this calendar at all? Does it need to actually even happen? Can it be an email? Do we have to be sending links? Maybe not.

Leah: Oh, Nick. There was a whole drama about the one that I brought up in our last deep dive about meetings. It came back to life again this week.

Nick: Oh, really?

Leah: And I actually was like, "Hey, you know what? I really don't understand why this ..."

Nick: Are these the people who are like— you're like, "I can meet in the morning," and they're like, "two o'clock?"

Leah: Yes. And— but it was also the same thing where I'd already had the meeting.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And then they were like, "Let's have a new meeting." And I didn't even understand why we were having the— you know?

Nick: What did you say?

Leah: Oh, it got really complicated. But I just want everybody to know that I basically was like, "Hey, these are the facts that I have. You know, what more do we need to know about this?"

Nick: "I have nothing more to add."

Leah: [laughs] There seemingly is nothing else.

Nick: And did that end it, or no, we gotta have a meeting?

Leah: I don't know. We're in ...

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Meetings are the worst. They're the worst.

Leah: It's like, "What's happened? What is happening?"

Nick: And I feel like were meetings— were we having meetings 2,000 years ago?

Leah: I don't think we were.

Nick: I feel like we weren't to this degree. No. And yet we got stuff done somehow.

Leah: My favorite part about this is the person who originally wanted to have the meeting was like, "I'm not available now. Why don't you guys go ahead and do the meeting?"

Nick: Oh, so he's already decided I don't need to be in the meeting.

Leah: And I immediately messaged and I go, "This meeting was your idea."

Nick: Amazing.

Leah: Since I can't, you know what I mean? I was like, "No. No!"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, if this is your idea and you're like, "Oh, I don't need to be in this meeting, it's fine." Well then, what have we done?

Leah: What have we done?

Nick: What have we done? Wow. Shut it down. Shut it down.

Leah: Oh, I almost called you after because I was like, "Who— who is she?" I was like, thank goodness we've had this episode already because Ö † Nick: Yeah, now you have all the tools.

Leah: I had all the tools.

Nick: What was the advice we gave? It's like, what would be on the agenda?

Leah: Yeah, that's what I— and I wrote everything that I felt had already been covered.

Nick: Amazing. Okay, well, that's— you are using the tools.

Leah: I'm using the tools, Nick. I literally visualize me putting down, like a— my toolbox often looks often like a— like a fishing ...

Nick: Oh, a little tackle box?

Leah: Yeah, a little tackle box. And I just flip it open. I visualize that before I send the email, and I go bup bup bup bup.

Nick: Oh, I love that. My toolbox is a Japanese metal toolbox in bright metallic blue.

Leah: Oh, amazing!

Nick: Very specific. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: Ooh, that was a— like a different howl today.

Leah: [laughs] I was gonna say after it came out, "That felt different."

Nick: Yeah, that was— that was a little lower, more resonant.

Leah: It was from a different place in my chest.

Nick: Love it. So our first question is quote, "I recently missed a gathering of extended family. Apparently, at this gathering, a member of my extended family brought small gifts for everyone— a very sweet gesture! My gift was brought home to me by other family members who were able to attend. The problem is I have no idea what this gift is. If I were to guess, I would imagine it was bought at a craft fair. Is there a world where it is appropriate to ask what it is? I know I can just acknowledge the gift in a non-specific way— 'thanks so much for the sweet gift!' But I'm wondering about the etiquette of acknowledging that I'm baffled by what this item is to be used for."

Leah: Two things. One, I immediately remembered a gift that I got that I had no idea what it was.

Nick: Yeah?

Leah: And it was just I couldn't— you know, sometimes you're like, can I take a picture and feed it into Google and be like, "Tell me what this is?"

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: I could not. It was obviously like a reference to something.

Nick: Okay?

Leah: And then I also had a really good time trying to guess what this was.

Nick: So this letter writer sent us a photo of the objet. So Leah, describe what it is that you see.

Leah: So I definitely say craft fair.

Nick: Yes. It is knit. It is a knitted object.

Leah: And I've bought many things like this from, like, our church fairs.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: In the same vibe, but they're usually like a, you know, grab— so let me describe it, and then I will explain the vibe that I took from it to make my guess.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So it is a little baby hat.

Nick: Oh! Okay.

Leah: Like a cover with, like, a little pom pom on top?

Nick: Yes. It's a toque, if you're Canadian.

Leah: And it has, like, a string down on it. And then it has a ring.

Nick: Right. Okay. It is a sort of a— almost like a cupcake?

Leah: A cupcake hat.

Nick: So, like, there's kind of a maybe a beige base, and then there's kind of a ring that could be sort of like the edge of a cupcake. But then the top is, like, lavender and dark purple. And then there's a little white poof at the top, which is like. is that whipped cream? I don't know. But, like, purple cupcake, and it's not really cupcake-y. And then yeah, there is a string with a loop, so it's sort of like, is it a keychain? But like, I don't— I don't think it's a keychain.

Leah: No. Because this is what it gave the vibe of. You know, when you get those little hand-crocheted oven mitts?

Nick: Okay?

Leah: Or, you know, little things that you use around the oven for hot surfaces.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: And so I thought, "I think it's a tea kettle cap."

Nick: Tea kettle cap. But I put this thing on top of a tea— no. What?

Leah: On top of it. So when you pick up the top of the tea kettle, you don't burn your little fingers.

Nick: Okay. But then why is there a string with, like, a loop keychain on it?

Leah: So that way you can loop it around it and let the cap hang off the side.

Nick: Okay. That's a real specific guess.

Leah: [laughs] I mean, I thought we were doing specific guesses.

Nick: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it kind of looks like a cupcake, so I'm leaning into this cupcake idea. So it feels like it's a charm, and maybe you just loop it onto a bag somehow.

Leah: No, it's a hat.

Nick: Maybe it's like, for your luggage. Like it's a— you know, identify your luggage.

Leah: I think it's utilitarian, and it's to put on something that's hot.

Nick: Okay. I think this is decorative. Leah thinks this is functional. It is definitely baffling. Like, I get it. I don't know what this thing is. I will post a link to a photo of this in the show notes, and I'd be delighted for people to take a look at this. Maybe this is super obvious. I guess I'm not going to a lot of craft fairs. Regardless, I think I appreciate our letter-writer's instinct to send a thank you note. So that's good.

Leah: I never— when I got this gift that I couldn't figure it out, I never admitted to not getting what it was, which maybe was incorrect.

Nick: Um, I don't think it's required to ask, but I think there's a way to do it.

Leah: I think there is a way to do it, which, you know, this— this was actually previous to our podcast.

Nick: Your toolbox was— your tackle box was a void.

Leah: I didn't even have the tackle box.

Nick: Right.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: So I think we're gonna write a thank you note. "Thank you so much for the gift. It's charming and lovely." And then I would say, like, "Oh, it's so unique. I'd love to know more about it and how you came upon it." And so I would invite the conversation to be like, "Tell me more about this thing." And then hopefully they would be like, "Oh, it's a bookmark from my local community fair." Or it's a tea cozy holder so you don't burn your fingers. Or it's a keychain, or whatever it is.

Leah: I love that. Could we say, "It's so charming and delightful and unique. I'm not quite sure how to use it."

Nick: Uh, I mean, what if it's something super obvious? Like, what if this is a keychain? And so then they're like, "You don't know how to use a keychain? You put your keys in it." [laughs] Right? I mean, like, what if— what if this is a— maybe it's a knit keychain.

Leah: It could be a knit keychain. It really could be.

Nick: I guess? Although I don't think I want a knit keychain.

Leah: No. I just feel like because your keychain really goes through a lot of weathers and temperatures.

Nick: Yeah. Also, like, the metal on it. Like, I hope it's not a knit keychain, but maybe it is.

Leah: I think it's a tea kettle top.

Nick: Maybe it's like a pull. Like, you loop the thing around ...

Leah: Oh! Like a shade!

Nick: That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, like, it's a tassel attachment. But now it's a cupcake, and now the cupcake is upside down? That doesn't make sense.

Leah: You may be— it's a Christmas ornament.

Nick: Not in this orientation.

Leah: And you put it— no, you hang it. It's an upside down winter hat for your tree. My eye just started twitching.

Nick: [laughs] Maybe it's a lawnmower pull.

Leah: I don't— that is not strong enough. You ever pulled a lawnmower chain?

Nick: I love that our audience is probably having such a hard time picturing this object based on our description. [laughs] Just picture it's a small knit cupcake, and from the bottom of the cupcake, there's a string and a loop.

Leah: And it's a double string.

Nick: Oh, you think that matters?

Leah: I mean, if they're visualizing.

Nick: Oh, maybe. Yeah.

Leah: And I didn't see cupcake at all. I see hat.

Nick: Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's a Rorschach test for sure.

Leah: I can't believe my eye. It's just really gone off during this conversation. [laughs]

Nick: So yeah, I think I would invite them to give you more information about how they came upon it, where they purchased it, who made it. Maybe there's a story. And I think if you get that conversation going, a clue about its use will come up.

Leah: I think the other option is you love it, you think it's so cute. You put it on your tea kettle.

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: You send them a picture of it. You go, "I love it." You're like, "I absolutely love this. I think it's so cute. But it hit me, am I using this wrong?"

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Like, you're already into it even if you're using it wrong. It's still fun.

Nick: Oh, okay. Like, "Oh, I love this tea cozy knob. Is this right?"

Leah: "Is this— is this right? Because I actually realized I could use it for multiple things. It's so cool."

Nick: "Oh, it's so handy around the house."

Leah: "I could also use it as a keychain or a shade pull. Or I can make it a Christmas ornament. So I realized was there ..."

Nick: Or, "What's your favorite use for this?"

Leah: [laughs] "What's your favorite use?"

Nick: "Of all the things I can do with this cupcake/string/keychain ..."

Leah: Yes!

Nick: "What's your favorite?" Okay!

Leah: I mean, there's another option.

Nick: That works. Okay. So yeah, I'd be very curious, listeners. Take a look at the photo in the show notes and let me know what is it?

Leah: Could be a finger warmer.

Nick: Finger warmer. Ah. Can I blow bubbles with it?

Leah: You know what it is? You put the ring at the bottom of your finger, and then you put the hat on the top of your finger so it's like one of those rings that's like a double chain, but this is like the crocheted version.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Ao our next question is quote, "I'm the type of person who likes to hang out with friends. I like to drive so I can leave as early or late as I wish. I have seen or feel over the years that I'm being used as the person who is expected to drive. This includes picking friends up as well as their friends who I don't know, or even asked if I mind picking them up. I wish to say that everyone in the group has a car, so I feel used, where no one suggests that we rotate driving on our outings, or not all offer to pay for parking. I want to say that if they want a ride, drive to my house. But they seem to want curb-to-curb service. How can I tactfully say to my friends that I am tired of them asking me to pick them up and drive all of them all the time?"

Leah: I do think that this is like a poopy thing that happens when, like, you have a person who volunteers to do things, and then people just sort of then glam on and then, like, expect it all the time, and they don't even realize that they're sucking the life out of this person and not being gracious about it.

Nick: Yeah. And this has happened where it's sort of like, "Oh, driving. That's your thing."

Leah: Yeah, that's— you know, and I think it also happens to people who often host events.

Nick: Yeah. It's like, "Oh, you always host the big party for the Super Bowl. That's your thing. You're obligated to do it every year."

Leah: "We're just coming over. We figured you're gonna set it up."

Nick: Yeah, this does happen. Yeah, this totally— yeah, this is unfortunate.

Leah: I wrote down,— they were like, "Hey, can you pick me up— or can you pick me up at five?" You know what I mean? They're like ...

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: And then you could say something like, "Sure. Can you drive over to my house and drop your car off, and we'll all leave from here?"

Nick: Yeah. I think we just need a good old fashioned boundary setting. Yeah. Which is like, "Here's what works for me." Because you are not obligated to, like, chauffeur everybody.

Leah: And also when you pick them up, that means you gotta drive them home.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So it's a double. They're hitting you on both ends. So this way if their car is at your house, A) I think you're, like, making them recognize, "Oh, I'm just expecting a pickup and a drop off." So you're— when you throw something out, they have to be like, "Oh, I've just been expecting this this whole time." But then also you're being like— you're setting it up so you also don't have to drive them home.

Nick: Yeah. I think it's fair to be like, "I'm happy to drive if everybody wants to leave from my house." End of story.

Leah: Yeah. "Be here— please be here by this time."

Nick: Yeah. And I think we could also say, like, "Hey, it'd be great to rotate the driving responsibilities. Like, I like driving, but I think we could have everybody take turns."

Leah: I think our letter-writer likes to drive so they can leave whenever they want.

Nick: I respect that.

Leah: So I get that. So I think I would also say, "Hey, we can all leave from my house. Also, I may want to head out early, so if you think you might not want to leave whenever I want to leave, you should probably bring your own car."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I love the idea that they're now asking you to pick up people you don't even know. "Can we also pick up Jane?" What?

Nick: Yeah. Now— now it's gone too far. Yeah. Yeah, now you're a bus.

Leah: You're what?

Nick: I think just good old fashioned boundary setting. And as a reminder, it is possible to be polite and set boundaries at the same time. Like, that is totally compatible.

Leah: And then I think we just throw it out there, like real, like, oh, of course I would say this, because it's absolutely reasonable that you would not expect me to do everything your way all the time, but not in any kind of way. Just like, "For sure. Just everybody meet here at five." And then if they push back, that's their issue.

Nick: Totally. Yeah, I wouldn't feel apologetic about it.

Leah: Yeah, not apologetic at all.

Nick: "Happy to drive everybody. I'm leaving my place at five. Be here or be square."

Leah: Yeah. And then if they're like, "But, but, but," then they'll have to say out loud, "But I expect you to always pick me up and drop me off." And then maybe the words will come back, and they will look at them for what they are.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. I mean, we can only hope.

Leah: We can only hope.

Nick: So you out there, we hope you have some questions for us. So send them to us. Send them to us through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I want to give you a chance to go first, Nick.

Nick: Delighted to! So I would like to vent. So I was with a friend, and we were going to some event together, so we decided we were gonna Uber together. And so then we do that, and we get to the event, and now we're at the event, and my friend then realizes that he left his phone in the Uber.

Leah: Mmm!

Nick: And unfortunately, this friend has decided that his phone case is also his wallet.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: So not a great combo. So now we have lost both our phone and the wallet. So I was like, okay. So what we do is in the Uber app, there's a way for you to, like, contact your driver for, like, that last ride. But of course, my friend had ordered the Uber, so ...

Leah: I was gonna say, who ordered the Uber?

Nick: So we have to, like, log me out of my account on my phone. He has to, like, log himself into my account so that— okay, fine. So now we're in. We send a message to Uber. Uber actually contacts the driver, which— very fast. I was very surprised. And the driver, like, checked the car and was like, "Nope, no phone or wallet here." So then we're like, we're calling the phone, we're calling the phone, we're calling the phone. Like, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So then eventually, like, 30, 45 minutes later, we try again, and somebody picks up and is like, "Hi, you have, like, a phone." And he's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was in the back of an Uber. So I took it. I thought that would be better than giving it to the driver. And I'm thinking, how— how is this better? But okay. And this guy lives in, like, Bed Stuy, Brooklyn.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: And he's like, "Well, I got it in my house. You can come here and pick it up." And it's like, okay. And this is, like, Friday night, and that's like an hour car ride at this point with traffic, like, to get from, like, you know, where we are in Manhattan to, like, all the way up there. So, like, okay, "Well, we're gonna head out." Because, like, obviously we gotta get the phone for my friend. And so he's like, "But I'm gonna go to bed in, like, 30 minutes."

Leah: What?

Nick: And so, like, you took someone's phone because you thought you were being helpful. You took it to, like, Bed Stuy, Brooklyn, and now you're going to bed soon. It's like, "How was— how are you helping? How are you helping when you could have just given it to the Uber driver, who I'm sure is driving all night tonight?" And, like, we could have— this could have been so much easier. But okay. And now I'm along for the adventure because I'm the only one with a phone and a wallet. So now I'm, like, being a good friend. I'm like, "All right, I guess we're going to Bed Stuy tonight." And so, like, now we're going to Bed Stuy." And so we're like, "Please don't go to bed. Like, there could be traffic. Could you stay up a little longer for us?" Like, we're begging this guy, like, please don't go to bed. And so then my friend— like, I stay in the Uber. My friend runs up, gets the wallet. And I guess, like, the guy was expecting some sort of reward or something.

Leah: Oh, I bet he wanted a tip. Yeah.

Nick: Oh, I don't think you earned a tip here tonight, sir. [laughs] I don't think you made this better. So that happened. So yeah, I do feel like don't do that unless you really can be helpful. Unless you think the Uber driver is gonna steal the phone or, like, unless you know the Uber driver is retiring that night and will never drive again. Like, unless— unless you think that's the move, I don't think that's the move.

Leah: Oh, that's wild. Well, it's also wild that, like, he took it. He answered.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: As opposed to just, like, taking it. But then was like, "Hey, if you want it back, you should be tipping."

Nick: Right. And it's also like, I took the phone because I thought that would be the safest thing. And then I live far away and I'm going to bed soon. So if you want the phone back, it's not gonna be easy.

Leah: That's why I think he didn't take it because he thought it would be the safest thing. I think he was extorting.

Nick: Oh, you think this is always an extortion plan? Oh, interesting!

Leah: How would be taking the phone way out into Brooklyn and not answering it for 45 minutes ever be more helpful?

Nick: I mean, for somebody who's— I feel like people who are extortionists don't go to bed early.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I feel like they're night owls. Right? Right? I mean, don't you feel like ...

Leah: I know I'm a night owl. I'm not an extortionist.

Nick: No, but— well, not all night owls are extortionists, but I feel like all extortionists are night owls. I just don't feel like ...

Leah: I disagree.

Nick: You think extortionists are, like, up at 6:00 am to start the day?

Leah: Well, this guy seems like an extortionist to me.

Nick: He does. And he has an early bedtime on a Friday.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So I guess, like, I was just annoyed because, like, I did not make the mistake of leaving something in a taxi. So, you know ...

Leah: So friendship, Nick. You gotta go along for the ride.

Nick: Friendship. I know. I know. The things we do. So you, Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm gonna— well, I'm glad your friend got their phone back. I'm gonna say that.

Nick: Yeah, I was actually surprised it had a happy ending.

Leah: It did have a happy ending, because that could have gone a whole other way.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I've had people steal my phone, answer it, and then be like, "Oh, I'm not giving it back."

Nick: [laughs] Oh! Wow. Okay, yeah. That wasn't this.

Leah: And then I chased them all the way down the block. But I'm gonna vent, Nick.

Nick: Okay, what has happened?

Leah: So this is a very minor vent.

Nick: Love it.

Leah: But I definitely said mean things out loud about this woman all the way down the block.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: So I live— we all know I live right next to Hollywood Boulevard. We are in summer tourist mode. It is packed. There are tour groups. People come to look at the stars on the sidewalk. People are taking pictures. We all still need to walk down the sidewalk. You know what I mean? And I mean, it's— I got the dogs. I would love to not walk them there, but this is where we live, you know? And sometimes we just gotta do a quick pee. I still gotta walk out that door, you know what I mean? So they're gonna have to cross that sidewalk. So we're coming back, and I mean, the corner's packed. Just all these people, and then there is, like, people love taking pictures. So I'm just walking and this— and I mean, it's really crowded. I don't know how she thought she was— and she's making a video, a circular video where she's walking in a circle, making a ...

Nick: Ah!

Leah: She put her hand out to me like she was a lord or a lady and I was like, her serf. You know what I mean? And then flicked me.

Nick: Oh, there's a flick!

Leah: There was a wrist flick out of her way.

Nick: Oh, I don't like that!

Leah: Because she was walking in a circle. She wrist flicked me.

Nick: Oh, I don't— mm-mm. Don't— nope, don't do that.

Leah: You know, I stopped for a second because I was— the wrist flick. But then I was like, am I gonna yell at somebody on the sidewalk about a wrist flick? I just— and then I'm gonna be in the video that she's making.

Nick: Yeah, you don't want to— you don't want to be on— hmm.

Leah: I don't want to be in a video yelling directly at the camera.

Nick: [laughs] Right.

Leah: So I don't know where that's gonna go. But I— the wrist flick? The whole rest of the sidewalk, I was just like— I was, you know— I— so rude!

Nick: It's a— it's a pretty dismissive gesture.

Leah: It's so dismissive. It's so condescending.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: The disrespect. And yet she was filming, and I was like, you're not gonna be a lady screaming on TikTok.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, there is one star of the internet every day, and your job is to make sure you're never that person.

Leah: [laughs] I don't want to be that person.

Nick: Wow! Oh, wow. She— I mean, what a great loophole, where if you do something super rude but are also filming at the same time, people can't react to you because, like, they don't want to be filmed reacting to your rudeness. Like, that feels like a loophole.

Leah: Because the camera's not pointing at her when she's doing this. It's pointing at me.

Nick: Right. So then it just looks like some unhinged woman with dogs. Just like ...

Leah: Yeah, just literally looks like an unhinged lady with dogs.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to be that person.

Leah: Even though I might be that person, I don't want it on camera.

Nick: We don't need people to know that.

Leah: [laughs] Oh, but I will see that wrist flick for, like, the next week.

Nick: Oh, it's so gross!

Leah: So gross, Nick.

Nick: Ugh. I'm sorry that happened.

Leah: Mmm! Mm, mm, mm.

Nick: Mm, mm.

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Oh, my goodness. I learned this extensive, amazing biography about Amy Vanderbilt.

Nick: Yes! And interestingly, she's buried in Brooklyn, so I actually just reached out to the cemetery to be like, "Is it true? And where is she?" And they, like, gave me the location, so I'm gonna pop out there as a little field trip and check it out.

Leah: And I love, like, all the details you added about where her empathy and compassion grew from.

Nick: Yeah, it's interesting. And for you, I learned that you have no idea the difference between a hat and a cupcake.

Leah: I mean, when a person's hungry, they would eat either.

Nick: Fair enough. Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks you out there for listening. I'd send a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework, as you'll recall, I'm expecting handwritten notes at my P.O. box from y'all.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And many of you are doing your homework, so thank you. But the number of letters I am receiving is not the same number as people who listen to our show. Isn't that interesting? The number of letters I'm getting is less, which means some of you not doing your homework. And international listeners? You have post offices where you live too, and the mail works internationally. So just because you live outside of the United States, you are not exempt from homework. I'm expecting letters from you, too. So please do your homework.

Leah: Nick is hard marker! I would be so happy that I got any letters.

Nick: No, I'm very happy with the letters I've received. Thank you to all of those who have done their homework. I appreciate it. But those of you who have not, I take it personally. I feel like I have failed somehow.

Leah: I'm glad you used the word "personally," because I was just thinking how you feel like a personal trainer right now who's, like, just not taking excuses for not hitting your macros or your workouts that week.

Nick: No excuses.

Leah: I don't care what happened.

Nick: Do or do not. There is no try.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So please do it. Send me a letter. I really want it. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: I'm actually gonna send a cordial of kindness out to Dustin.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: Because a while ago, because of something that came up with the dogs, I was out of town. He came up with the idea to get a lock box, and I'd forgotten. We hadn't used it. It was just like a lovely idea that he did. And then last night, for the first time ever in my life, I locked myself out of the house at 2:00 am. I mean, I've locked myself out of the house during the day when there were people around.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: Never have I gone out to walk the dogs at night. I just always put my keys in my back pocket, and there was already something in my back pocket, and it was late.

Nick: Oh, so you had the muscle memory of ...

Leah: Yes. So I hit my back pocket and I was like, "There they are." And I came back to the door, and I reached in and I was like, "That is not the keys." And too late to wake up the landlord. The person who had our keys is now gone, who is also on the late schedule. And I went into— I was like, "What am I gonna do with the dogs?" Like, I— I was just— and then I remembered Dustin had got a lock box.

Nick: Amazing!

Leah: And there it was. And then I opened it. And there was the key.

Nick: I mean, what a hero.

Leah: What a hero! I left a message. I go, "You are absolutely a hero."

Nick: [laughs] And for me, I want to read a nice email we just got, which is quote, "I so love your podcast. I listened to it for a few months before I realized that yours is one of only two podcasts that make me laugh out loud. Not only that, last fall I had surgery that is considered routine, but had me extremely anxious. I got up hours before the scheduled time and listened to your podcasts one after another until it was time to head to the surgical center. I found it wonderfully engrossing and calming— not to mention educational. Just the diversion I needed. I am now a forever subscriber. You are the best."

Leah: That is so lovely!

Nick: Isn't that nice? I think that's so nice.

Leah: It's so nice. And I'm so honored that we could be with somebody, as a person who also gets anxious, specifically around medical stuff, that we could somehow comfort people. Because it is— you feel so anxious that we could be with people and be, like, happy stuff. And that really means a lot to me. Thank you so much!

Nick: That does. So thank you. We really appreciate it.