Discovering Bone Dishes, Enduring Waiting Rooms, Texting Wedding Thank-Yous, and More

Nick: Do you discard food in the wrong spot? Do you annoy people in waiting rooms? Do you send texts for wedding gifts? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Here are things that can make it better

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Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So Leah, for today's amuse bouche, I want you to take a peek at this photo I just texted you.

Leah: Grabbing my phone, Nick.

Nick: Okay, so I have sent you some photos, and in one of the photos, I have put a big red arrow pointing to something. So for our listeners, please describe what you see.

Leah: [laughs] I get so anxious. I'm like, I hope I could describe it. But I can describe this. So it's a very fancy place setting. The whole photo is a very lovely place setting.

Nick: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Leah: And the arrow is going to a plate or like a bowl plate that is shaped like a crescent moon.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Going around the left side of the upper left hand side of the plate.

Nick: Right. Yes. So sort of like at the ten, eleven o'clock area.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. And I sent you some other photos.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay. And describe those.

Leah: So it is the same plate which is—it's shaped like a crescent moon. And it's got a lip, so it's a borderline bowl. It's a plate into, like, a baby ...

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: But these are—the plate in the big picture was plain. These are beautiful. These have—they're painted and they have—these two have, like, a lady in them. Two different ladies with flowers in their hair. Sort of like it's giving a lady in a seashell kind of a vibe.

Nick: Sure. Yeah. Very Venus de Milo.

Leah: Yes. If she had clothes on.

Nick: [laughs] Yes. And were Victorian. And the third photo?

Leah: The third photo, same plates.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But these are also little delicate flowers.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: Hand painted on it. So these are so cute!

Nick: So Leah, the question for today is: What is this plate for?

Leah: Can I have two guesses, Nick?

Nick: You can have as many guesses as you'd like.

Leah: Wow, we could be here ...

Nick: Well, I'll cut you off at some point.

Leah: So my first—my first guess is—oh, my first thought was—and I already decided it's not my first. It's not what I think it is.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But I want to tell you what my first thought was.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: Oh, finger bowl. Because it's, like, right there at the top.

Nick: Ah! And you're like, "Of course, Nick would talk about finger bowls."

Leah: Yes, we've talked about—but I think those are round. And then also you would need one on each side if you were doing, you know, one, two.

Nick: Wait, do you think—just one moment. Hold the presses. Do you think that when you have finger bowls, there are two at the table?

Leah: No, I think there's one round one.

Nick: One each?

Leah: I think there's one round one.

Nick: Yes. When we are doing finger bowls, they only bring you one. There's not one for each hand. It's not like a paraffin dip at the salon. [laughs]

Leah: [laughs] I know, but I'm saying if they did it this way, where it was just right on the corner for your left hand, then it would only make sense.

Nick: Right. Yes.

Leah: Which I know is not true.

Nick: Okay, so not finger bowl.

Leah: So then I was like, what if they're serving, like, cherries?

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And this is where we're gonna put, like, our cherry stems.

Nick: Okay. All right. Yes. I mean, you are onto something. Yes. So what this is is a bone dish.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: Sometimes called a bone plate. And yes, it is for the discards. It's for bones and other garbage that might happen at this meal. And a Montgomery Ward catalog from 1895 says that they're, quote, "A convenient individual side dish for table use in which to deposit game or fish bones, pairings of fruit, et cetera."

Leah: I love it. I also thought when you said—after you said bones or other garbage that may occur, how funny would it be if somebody said something rude and you were like, "Oh, putting that comment in the bone dish with the other trash?"

Nick: That would be quite elegant. Actually, that would be a wonderful thing in a Jane Austen novel. Like, that would be a lovely retort.

Leah: With the other refuse.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: We should put that in our sketch, Nick. That's in our Jane Eyre sketch.

Nick: That's it. So this is a very Victorian thing. And this extended into the Edwardian era, and then it has since faded away. But as we know, the Victorians, they loved specialized utensils. Like, they loved a strawberry fork and a gelatin server and, like, they loved all those specialized things. And that did extend to plates as well. There's all sorts of, like, specialized vessels like asparagus trays and pudding dishes and bonbon trays. And so bone dish makes sense. This is, like, another very specialized thing that they liked. And this round curve, this crescent shape is meant to sort of fit around the dinner plate, and so that's why it's sort of curved, and it kind of fits kind of nicely snugly, like Tetris-y onto the place setting.

Leah: It's so cute. It's really cute. Bone dish makes it sound like—like it's made out of bones.

Nick: Right? Bone china, right? Yeah, as a name, it's not the best name.

Leah: Yeah, it feels like there's a better word.

Nick: And so this is not like every household had bone dishes. Like, it wasn't like, oh, everybody had bone dishes, but definitely, like, fancy households. Or if you, like, bought a set of a hundred pieces of china, you know, at the store, like, it may come with bone dishes. But it was not universally loved. I saw a quote in the New York Times from 1891, which was, quote, "As you value your reputation, do not put butter plates or bone plates on your table. Surely one's plate is large enough to hold a wing or leg bone of a large fowl, or the few little ones that are found in the spring chicken or bird. If the debris is excessive, it is best to send away your plate and ask for a fresh and empty one. A bone plate is a precedent for the potato peeling plate, a corn cob plate. And there will be no limit to the crockery your guests will have to the right and left of them."

Leah: No limit to the crockery.

Nick: So the New York Times is like, "There shall be a limit to the crockery!"

Leah: I'm not sure if this person who wrote this saw how cute these dishes are, though. I mean, with the little paintings on them? Come on!

Nick: Yeah, I mean, they're—they're cute. But by the 1920s, this had totally faded away. And Emily Post, in her 1922 book, doesn't even talk about them. She does actually refer to them as a "crescent-shaped dish that you would use for salad." And so what happened with these plates is people started using them for side salads.

Leah: That's the smallest side salad. I mean, you could use it for, like, a scoop of, like, a beet salad, but not something with lettuce. It's not big enough.

Nick: But even then, she says it's, quote, "Seen rarely in fashionable houses." And she says you would only use this if you're, like, serving chicken, and the chicken is on a hot plate, and you want the salad to not also be on a hot plate. And so you could use these little crescent dishes for, like, the salad on the side.

Leah: I think it's super cute for, like, seeds.

Nick: Yes. I mean, I think it's fine for any of your discards.

Leah: I like calling it a discard plate.

Nick: I like a discard plate. And that brings me to my next topic, which is what do we do now when we want to discard something? Because the advice that we hear from everybody is you put it on the side of your plate. I mean, that is the etiquette rule. But rarely does anybody talk about where on the side of your plate you're actually supposed to put stuff. And there actually is a 2.0 etiquette rule about this.

Leah: Hit us with it, Nick.

Nick: You put it at the eleven o'clock position on your plate. That is the designated discard zone, is what I call it. I don't think that's the official name for this. I call it the discard zone.

Leah: It's in the DZ.

Nick: It's in the DZ. Yeah. So the DZ is where the bone plate would have been. I mean, it's in that direction. It's at that 11 o'clock zone. And so the modern interpretation of the bone plate is to still put the discards in the discard zone in that direction.

Leah: I wish that people could see you right now, because Nick is actually physically pushing all of them ...

Nick: I'm physically shoving all the bones into that corner.

Leah: Eleven o'clock. They're going to the eleven o'clock quadrant.

Nick: They're going to eleven o'clock. Yeah.

Leah: And to circle back. I think I like it as a discard vessel instead of a discard plate, because it does curve up very nicely.

Nick: I mean, you're really hung up on the curvature of the sides.

Leah: I'm really into plates that curve up. They're borderline bowls.

Nick: I mean, to have such a passion for that shape, Leah.

Leah: I really—I love it. Like, it's almost like—like a gentle pasta bowl. Come on!

Nick: It is a gentle—yeah, it is sort of an elegant swoop. It is true. Yeah, there is something nice about that edge. And all the bowls I've ever seen have had that sort of nice curvature.

Leah: I love it.

Nick: I've never seen a straight-sided bone dish.

Leah: No! It's not done.

Nick: It's just not done. Yes. So that is a little brief history of bone dishes and what to do with your discards now. And I hope that is helpful.

Leah: It's so—also, are you gonna add those pictures to the show notes?

Nick: Oh, sure. Yes, I'll put these in the show notes so everybody can see what you got to enjoy today.

Leah: They're so cute!

Nick: I mean, they're not my aesthetic.

Leah: I just think it'd be fun if you had, like, a bone dish-painting party with your friends.

Nick: Oh, now I have to paint them?

Leah: Why not?

Nick: I mean, the Victorian aesthetic is so not my aesthetic.

Leah: Yeah, but you could paint them anything you wanted. It would be your bone dish-painting party.

Nick: Okay. So I could do a—I would just paint them gray.

Leah: I was gonna say you could just make them one color.

Nick: [laughs] I would have them as white. So there you go.

Leah: Awesome!

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and almost all the way inside.

Nick: Oh! Gosh, Leah.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about waiting room etiquette.

Leah: This was inspired because a few episodes ago, I had a little vent in the Vent or Repent section about a person coming up to me in the waiting room and asking me to hold their phone. And a whole—a whole thing happened after that.

Nick: Yeah, I'm actually still a little traumatized about that.

Leah: [laughs] I won't—I won't ruin the story if you haven't heard that episode yet, but because we realized we've discussed waiting rooms, but not, like, as a whole—there's so much more to cover once we—once we open up people handing you random things category.

Nick: [laughs] Yes. And there's a lot of different types of waiting rooms. And so there's the medical, dental that you experienced. There's legal offices, spas, salons, corporate lobbies, transportation waiting rooms, you know, airport lounges, et cetera. But the point of all of these is that they are a place to wait. And so no one wants to be there. Nobody is like, "Oh, today I want to go to this place, and that is my destination."

Leah: And rarely are you there alone. We are waiting with other people who are waiting.

Nick: Right. Yes, there will be other people in this space with you. Yes. So I think when we think about the etiquette, I think we have to remember that okay, this is a shared resource. And often the people who are in these spaces also might actually have a little heightened emotion of some sort. So there could be anxiety or discomfort or boredom. But rare, I think, is the person that is, like, totally centered in these spaces, right?

Leah: I think that these spaces definitely come with a lot of feelings.

Nick: There are a lot of feelings. So I guess the first thing on my list—and maybe that's just really all we need to say, and then we could just, like, end it—is for the love of whatever deity you pray to, do not play videos on your phone that I can hear.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: That's all. If we could just do that, that would be enough. Thank you so much. Next.

Leah: I think the broader of that is whatever's happening on your phone needs to be happening inside your earphones.

Nick: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Leah: Videos.

Nick: It needs to be that. Talking on the phone.

Leah: I actually wrote—I think I brought this up before, but in case I haven't, I've written a horror script, and the opening scene is a woman in a waiting room with other people on speakerphone.

Nick: And I certainly hope in your story things don't end well for her.

Leah: Things do not. That is where it begins.

Nick: Yeah. So don't be that person.

Leah: In a lot of these places, since we're putting all waiting rooms into the same category, including, like, train stations and airports.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: You will have to take a phone call.

Nick: Yes, sometimes. Yes, sometimes.

Leah: Don't do it on speaker.

Nick: Yeah, don't do it on speaker. I mean, there's really no reason to do it on speaker unless you are on a reality TV show and are currently being filmed. That is really the only time when we need to be in a public space on speakerphone.

Leah: I was recently in the airport bathroom, and somebody was on speaker in the next stall.

Nick: I mean, that is so wrong for so many reasons.

Leah: It was so many reasons. I couldn't get my phone out quick enough. I wanted to—well, first I was just sort of sitting there.

Nick: You wanted to what?

Leah: Well, first I was sitting there. I want you to know the process. I was sitting there being like, "How can this happen?" And then I was like, "This is so wild!" And then I was like, "Oh, I should get an audio shot of this from my phone just so people can hear that I'm in a bathroom and the person in the next stall, I can hear both of their conversations." And then by the time all of that happened, I was like, "I'm just gonna go."

Nick: And the person on the other end can't love the idea that they're hearing everything that's happening in this bathroom.

Leah: I don't—I didn't get the idea from the conversation that it in any way put a slow in their step.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. But still, no speakerphone.

Leah: Stop! Don't do it!

Nick: And if you do need to take a phone call, okay. But, like, physically go somewhere where that feels appropriate and will not be inconveniencing other people.

Leah: Yeah, just put in your earphones, step to the side.

Nick: Yeah. So you might have to step into the hallway, might have to step into a quiet corner. But yeah, the full volume conversation among everybody who's right there next to you, like, let's not do that.

Leah: For real

Nick:. Another thing on my list: leave a buffer seat, please. There is no reason to sit right next to somebody if there are other seats available.

Leah: One hundred percent agree.

Nick: Right? I mean, not controversial.

Leah: I was in a waiting room for a doctor's office. And I mean, this was a large waiting room. It was very lovely, actually. I enjoyed the furniture. And I was the only person in there, and a woman came in and sat down right next to me.

Nick: Yeah. Why?

Leah: Well, then at first I was like, "Why would you ever?" And then I was like, maybe she feels like it's like a safety in numbers. You know what I mean? None of us want to go to the doctor, and then she was like, I need comfort. And it was like sort of a not-conscious decision where she was like, "Let's face this as a team."

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So I let it go. I was like, okay.

Nick: But that brings me to my next point, which is small talk boundaries. Not everybody wants it, and so you do need to be mindful that not everybody might want to be engaging in conversations. Now if you're sitting next to me, please don't. If you're sitting next to Leah, she's probably open to it.

Leah: I'm definitely open to, like, a, "Hey! Hi, where are you going? What's happening?"

Nick: I'm fine. Oh, I'm fine with a, "Hey! Hi, where are you going?" But now we're actually engaging in conversation.

Leah: But I do think there's a—if you engage, like, there's a point where you realize, oh, this person's done. They want to go back to what they're doing.

Nick: Right.

Leah: We read it. We then go back to our own personal space.

Nick: Yeah. So I think just be attuned to that, that there could be that point where you are getting the strong signal that, like, oh, we're kind of done here because yeah, I'm not interested in engaging in small talk in a waiting room.

Leah: No, I know. I could—I don't even need to know you. I would get the vibe right away.

Nick: Well, here's the thing. People do it, and I really feel like I'm really good about putting out the vibe of please don't. But some people just miss it.

Leah: Also, sometimes you're a talkative person. Not you, Nick. Sometimes other people ...

Nick: Sure.

Leah: ... are in a talkative mood, you know? And sometimes you're like, "I'm having a day. I just need to barely hold on and sit here and barely hold on in private." You know?

Nick: Yeah. Especially, you know, there are certain waiting rooms you might be there for a reason, which is, like, not happy.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: And so it's sort of like, yeah, let's just give everybody their space. And I think that's the last point, which is everybody should have space, but also, you gotta stay within your bubble. So you need to stay contained. So your bags and your coats and all that, like, needs to be within your bubble. Like, don't spread out, because other people might need those seats. And you want to stay within your sound bubble, so, like, your phone and everything that's making noise. Your scent bubble.

Leah: I was gonna say.

Nick: So if you're eating food, you know, we want to make sure that we're not eating something that's, like, crazy. And we just want to respect everybody else's bubble.

Leah: And then if you have trash after you eat food?

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Put it in the trash.

Nick: Well, clean up after yourself. Leave the spot how you'd like to find it.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, so if you brought in coffee, like, take it with you.

Leah: I feel like that's basically the whole ...

Nick: That's kind of it. But I think what is maddening is that this is not what is currently happening in the world in waiting rooms at all.

Leah: I wish we could bring spitballs back.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: You know, if somebody was just in—like, they're just on their phone watching a video really loud that you could just—for those of you unfamiliar with this ...

Nick: I was gonna say, for any listeners who may not be familiar with this, describe what a spitball is.

Leah: You would chew up paper and then you would take a straw. Well, basically, you would take a straw and you'd pull the paper off, and then you would chew it up. And then you would put it in one end, and then you would blow it out the other end and you would hit the person in the head.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah.

Leah: And that's a nice thing, I think, if somebody's watching a video and then they'd be like, "What? Where'd that come from?" But they don't know, because you put your straw away. And then maybe they'll think, "Oh, maybe it's because I'm listening to a video really loud."

Nick: Oh, you think people are gonna put that together?

Leah: And that's right before they beat you up. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. I was gonna say this is a high-risk strategy.

Leah: It's a high risk. Probably not a good idea, but I'm feeling wild today.

Nick: I mean, it's tempting. I mean, to want to seek vengeance upon people who are just breaking societal norms.

Leah: Yes. Well, not even just—it's norms not even in the way that's like, why does this exist? It's like kindness to others, awareness of others.

Nick: Yeah. This is not, "Oh, I didn't pass the salt and pepper shaker together."

Leah: Yeah. This is like ...

Nick: This is you are ruining this for everybody.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Yeah. Okay, so what do we do about this?

Leah: I mean, I love it when there's a person, either a receptionist—or I was on a plane once where we had a very involved flight attendant who would just get on the—I want to call it the CB radio, but that is not what it is.

Nick: [laughs] Breaker, breaker.

Leah: And would just be like, "If you are listening to a phone right now without headphones—" I love this person. I was like, "Can you be in every room I've ever been in?"

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: Because it's like, you want some sort of a polite police, you know?

Nick: Yes. Yeah, I mean, it would be nice if there was the etiquette police, if that could be a real thing.

Leah: Bring out the EPs.

Nick: So waiting rooms. Yeah. I mean, they—they shouldn't be hard, but I think as a society, we still are confused about how we're supposed to act in them, and so I guess we just need more practice.

Leah: I do like the idea of just having people employed in all of these spaces.

Nick: What we need is an etiquette bouncer.

Leah: EBs.

Nick: We need an EB.

Leah: They just walk around. They're hired in train stations, in airports.

Nick: Yep.

Leah: In major hospitals.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Although in hospitals, people are so stressed. I understand why you make rash decisions in hospitals.

Nick: Well, but the etiquette bouncer can be nice about it. Like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. You are playing a video right now, and I know you're stressed out, and this is, like, a lot of anxiety for you, but so is everybody else."

Leah: Or, like, "In here, let me offer you headphones."

Nick: "And here's headphones." Yeah. I think they have a fanny pack and it just has headphones in it.

Leah: Yep. And they're the—oh, here comes the ...

Nick: Here's the EB.

Leah: The EB's coming.

Nick: Okay. Yeah, I mean, they're really just a headphone dispenser. That's really the major issue.

Leah: They are a headphone dispenser. That is correct.

Nick: Yeah. That's really—that's really what it comes down to. So we'll see how that goes.

Leah: How amazing would it be if among our other things that we decide to do, like our line at Costco ...

Nick: Yeah?

Leah: The other thing is we somehow raise money. Our foundation is we raise money where we pay the salary ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: ... and fantastic health care for EBs. And then we contact these places. We contact, like, LAX and we be, "Hey, we pay their salary. You just need permission. They need permission to be there. They'll walk your terminals and be an etiquette police." And then that's our company.

Nick: Okay. Yeah, etiquette bouncers. Part of our foundation.

Leah: Making the world a politer place.

Nick: Yeah. No, this definitely feels very 501(c)(3). Okay. All right, I think we need the Wolves Foundation.

Leah: And then the bigger we get, the more we can put them in smaller and smaller offices.

Nick: Yes. And then there's just gonna be one in every coffee shop, one on every subway platform, one in every subway car.

Leah: Dream!

Nick: One in every movie theater. I mean ...

Leah: And obviously they have a sash of some sort.

Nick: Or alternatively, we deputize everyone in the world, and everyone is an etiquette bouncer, which would then mean we don't need them anymore because everyone is actually doing it themselves.

Leah: So I think then we just say to people to say, "Excuse me. I'm sorry, do you mind turning that down?"

Nick: Then I think that's the solution. But I like the idea of our charitable foundation. I think that could be fun. Let's get a board of directors going.

Leah: Let's get it going. And then what we do, it—wherever that space is, is that we also—obviously that's where my dogs are that I'm rescuing.

Nick: Oh, I see. So our etiquette foundation is gonna share office space with your dog sanctuary foundation.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: I see.

Leah: I'm just gonna piggyback them together.

Nick: Okay. Okay, well, we will—we will look into that.

Leah: Because I think the etiquette bouncers will need to walk with dogs so people know it's a real job.

Nick: Walking with a dog means it's a real job?

Leah: Yeah, it's like the drug dogs at the airport.

Nick: Oh! Oh, I see. Okay. Oh, wow.

Leah: I meant like at an airport. You know what I mean? You see the people with the dogs, you're like, "Oh, this is a drug dog. This is a bomb dog."

Nick: Do you think we can train dogs?

Leah: "This is an etiquette dog." Yes. The dog will be like, "I hear earphones. I'm going over here."

Nick: That would be amazing if we could train dogs to smell etiquette crimes.

Leah: Oh, they can definitely hear them. And then they could smell things where they'd be like, "This is too much."

Nick: Yeah. "Oh, you're microwaving tuna in the office."

Leah: "This is too much boiled eggs in a very closed-in space. You need to be eating this further away from people."

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Oh, I think we're really onto something with this.

Leah: I think we're really onto something. We save shelter dogs, and we train them to be etiquette police.

Nick: Oh, that really is gonna check off a lot of boxes for both of us.

Leah: Because I think it would be so much easier for people to hear that they need to turn down their earphones if there was a cute dog there.

Nick: It would take the edge off. Yeah.

Leah: Yeah, it would really take the—like, if someone came up to me and told me I had to stop doing something where they had a cute dog, I'd be delighted.

Nick: Okay. All right. I think we cracked the code on this.

Leah: Me too. I'm pretty excited. I'm very excited.

Nick: Okay. All right. All right, it's done. Done. Wolves Foundation and Leah's Animal Rescue Foundation.

Leah: It's great because they have come from wolves.

Nick: They have come from wolves. Okay.

Leah: I've literally never been more excited.

Nick: Okay, great.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "I work on the 10th floor of my company's office building, and often have lengthy rides on the elevator while I stop on others' floors. On a recent morning commute, I was on the elevator with two other women. They clearly knew each other but worked on different floors. The building is only for our company, but has many different divisions. On the elevator ride, they were chatting about how one of their cell phones had been acting up. When the elevator arrived at the first woman's stop, the seventh floor, she stepped out of the elevator and physically held the elevator door open with her arm while they continued to talk about her cell phone. After about a minute of this, I pointedly looked at her arm to convey that I disapproved of her holding up the elevator. She looked at me and said, 'Oh, sorry!' But then nonetheless continued to hold the elevator open and talk for a while longer with the woman who was still on the elevator with me. I am self-admittedly not the most patient individual, but I found their behavior to be odd and inconsiderate. I think the second woman, who was not yet at her floor, should have gotten off the elevator to continue talking to her acquaintance, and allowed the elevator—and me—to continue on its journey. There are multiple elevators at this bank, so she would have been able to catch another one easily after they finished talking. What is the appropriate way to wrap up an elevator conversation, and how long should it take if there are others waiting to continue onward to their floor? How should I have handled the situation, or would it have been better to just stay mum?"

Leah: I would actually put this as a Bonkers.

Nick: Yeah, when I got this I felt a chill in my spine.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I physically had a reaction to this.

Leah: I—when I read this, A) I'm visualizing the whole thing. I was like, that would make me so mad. But then I imagined you reading it, because it is so many—it's time. They're wasting your time. And elevator talking. It's all of your things.

Nick: It actually is every etiquette problem. Yes. Yes, if you don't know, for some reason, I really dislike people talking in elevators. Like, if it's just you and me, Leah, and we're in an elevator and we're having a conversation, no problem. But the minute somebody else is in that elevator, no talking.

Leah: And then Nick thinks that people who are late or make you late are stealing your time.

Nick: They are stealing your time. That is theft.

Leah: It's theft. So this is a—I mean, this is a one-two punch.

Nick: And there's a three-two punch. Wait, what's the third punch? A three-three punch?

Leah: A one-two-three punch.

Nick: Is there such a thing? One-two-three—whatever. Is this a boxing term? Where does this term come from, actually? Sports.

Leah: [laughs] Sports.

Nick: But there's a third issue, which is I asked you politely to, like, "Oh, can you release the elevator?"

Leah: Yes!

Nick: And you heard me. You said sorry, but you did nothing.

Leah: You continued to do what you were doing.

Nick: Which means now we have moved from, oh, you were just oblivious to now you are actively being rude.

Leah: I would so struggle with not going, "Are you kidding me right now?"

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Like, really?

Leah: Or, like, getting out of the elevator and just going to the next bank and being, like—just hitting the button to go up.

Nick: Yeah. No, this would definitely be a "Seriously?" A verbal "Seriously?"

Leah: I mean, at some point you want to be like—I get we have to work in this building with people, we don't know who they are. But sometimes people need to be, like, embarrassed by their actions. You want to be like—because I always—I always want to be polite. I always want to be like, oh, whatever. Water off a duck's back. I'm just gonna take the high road. But sometimes you want to be like, "People are going to work. What are you doing right now? This is so rude!"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, the only explanation I have, other than just you're a bad person, is that maybe you're a senior executive, and you just have a feeling that your time is more valuable than everybody else's. And so I'm just gonna hold the elevator because I'm entitled to do that.

Leah: You're still a jerk.

Nick: [laughs] I mean, that was the best explanation I had. But yeah, no, it's just rude, because it's just a shocking sense of entitlement.

Leah: It's so entitlement. I think it'd be fun to say, "Aren't you embarrassed that you're so rude?"

Nick: Oh! I mean, if you could land it. If you could land it.

Leah: "It's embarrassing that you guys would be so rude."

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, just step off the elevator.

Leah: Also, you're talking about a cell phone. Like, it's not urgent.

Nick: Yeah. This wasn't some business thing.

Leah: It would be hard not to just want to touch the elevator up button, and just start pressing it over and over and over again.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And then just look at her and go, "I'm so embarrassed for you."

Nick: Yeah, I do—I mean, there is something kind of satisfying about, like, "Oh, this is so embarrassing for you."

Leah: "This is so embarrassing for you."

Nick: Can you land that in a polite way? I think there's no way to do that. I think that's just super rude to say, but oh, how satisfying that would be.

Leah: How satisfying would it be, though? "So embarrassing for you."

Nick: Is there a way to say it? Oh, I really hope there is. Can I say it like, oh, somebody does something rude and be like, "Oh, wow. How embarrassing."

Leah: [laughs] Imagine—well, you could do it when the door closed. You could look at the person and be like, "I'm so sorry that was so embarrassing for you, because you guys came off as so rude."

Nick: [laughs] Oh, yeah. Oh, you really—no, there's no way to do that nicely. But oh, that'd be so fun.

Leah: "How mortifying that you have such an entitled friend."

Nick: Oh, we blame the friend?

Leah: Well, the person in the elevator—it's quite possible the person in the elevator was just panicking and was like, this is uncomfortable, and didn't realize that they could just step off. They were just hoping the other person would stop.

Nick: Yeah, okay. I mean, we could—we could throw the other person under the bus for this. But yeah, no, the idea, like, oh, wow, that was so embarrassing for you.

Leah: Also, the idea—a minute is actually a very long time.

Nick: I would like to think that that was a figurative minute in this letter, and that this was not actually 60 seconds of my life.

Leah: No, I think it was 60 seconds, because our letter-writer's already said, "I'm not a patient person." So they are aware that they cannot be patient, so when they say it's been a minute, it's been a minute.

Nick: Because 60 seconds is wild!

Leah: It's wild.

Nick: Like, listeners, time the next 60 seconds. Like, look at what time it is on your clock right now, and then just make a note of how much we talk about in the next 60 seconds and how much time that is. 60 seconds is an eternity, especially in an elevator.

Leah: What if you, our letter-writer, got down on the floor and just laid down?

Nick: Okay. Be like, "Call me when we're ready to go." [laughs]

Leah: Let me know when we're going, because I'm just gonna take a nap.

Nick: Oh, that's kind of fun.

Leah: I mean, at least that way it's fun.

Nick: You're rude.

Leah: It's rude, but it's funny.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Because then when they relay it to their friends, they have to be like, "Oh, this woman laid down in the elevator." And they'd be like, "Why?" "Oh, because we were talking for so long."

Nick: "We were holding the door open for nine hours."

Leah: That's—that's how much time she had to lay down.

Nick: What if you just got on your phone and be like, "Hey, sorry I'm gonna be late. I'm stuck in the elevator."

Leah: Yes! I love this one. I love this one.

Nick: Fake phone call.

Leah: Fake phone call!

Nick: Yeah. I mean, it's also super rude, but I like it.

Leah: I'm to the point where I feel like—and I feel like I was trying to say this earlier, but I didn't have the exact right words. I have been very committed to this taking the high road, turning the other cheek. But I may be willing to step into the super rude zone now, because they have doubled down on their rudeness and they've left you no choice.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess it is fair at some point.

Leah: At some point it's fair.

Nick: There is a point where it does become, like, is it rude at this point?

Leah: I'm not sure if I would do it, but I would love to see it, Nick. I would love to see it. If I was in an elevator with a person and somebody was talking, and then another person pulled out their phone ...

Nick: If somebody else did this I would be thrilled. [laughs]

Leah: I would be thrilled. I would send them flowers. I would find where they worked, and I'd walk by and I'd go, "I just want you to know you're the coolest person I've ever met."

Nick: Yeah. "You are my personal hero."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. I cannot personally endorse this, but I really hope somebody else does it.

Leah: But we would love to see it happen.

Nick: I would not be mad if it happened. Let's put it that way.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: None of our listeners should do it, but I think we can all be allowed to be delighted if it happens. How's that?

Leah: But I think our letter-writer, you handled it to the best of your ability. I mean ...

Nick: Yeah. No, I think this was good. I mean, I think the only other thing you could do would be like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Would it be possible to let the elevator go?"

Leah: Yeah, you could just say it like that.

Nick: I think we just say it again, like, "I'm so sorry. I do need to get to my desk."

Leah: "I'm sorry. I've never ..."

Nick: "Is it possible to step off at this moment?"

Leah: Yeah, "I do need to get to work."

Nick: Well, I think the tone will matter, so we have to be a little more neutral than that. But yes, like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Would it be possible to just let the elevator go?"

Leah: You've been thrown in there with savages.

Nick: Yeah, sometimes drastic measures are required.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So our next question is quote, "I sent a $500 check for a wedding, and I got this. Quote, 'Hi, Andrew. We would like to express our sincere gratitude for your wedding gift. We truly appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thank you very much, from Chad and Lisa.' This was a text. UNBELIEVABLE!"

Leah: Capital letters.

Nick: Capital letters. So what do we do about this?

Leah: I know I'm always the person who's like, "Send a text!" This is not it.

Nick: This is not it. No. I mean, the first problem is that there is absolutely nothing personalized in this text message. This is such a cut-and-paste job. It could not be more generic. This message has been texted to every single guest at that wedding. And you know Chad and Lisa are so pleased with themselves. They're like, "Oh honey, we got all of our thank-you notes done in two seconds. Aren't we grand?"

Leah: Yeah. I'm surprised it didn't have somebody else's name in the "Hi."

Nick: [laughs] Hi, Bracket.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: First name, placeholder, close bracket.

Leah: Imagine not even mentioning the gift when it was $500!

Nick: Yeah. That is not nothing. That—that is a nice gift. I would be delighted to receive $500.

Leah: Also, if you sent me $25, I'd be delighted, and I would say thank you so much for your generous monies.

Nick: Yeah, I would definitely want to indicate somehow in my thank-you note that I am thanking you specifically for the thing you gave me.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Yes. That actually is Thank-You Note 101. You must reference the gift.

Leah: Because otherwise it comes off as a cut and paste.

Nick: Yes. And I am like you. I would accept a text message for some gifts—most gifts even. But I draw the line at wedding gifts. I think wedding gifts, you do need to send a handwritten note. I just—that's what it needs to be. And I'm not prepared to concede that society has moved on from this.

Leah: I'm fine with handwritten notes for all wedding gifts, Nick. My text messages are usually like, gifts, gifts for our kids, gifts for our dogs, something you dropped off. Wedding? I mean, I feel like that's the standard. You give a wedding gift, you get a card thanking them.

Nick: Yes. And listeners, if Leah Bonnema is saying this, you know. You know this is the rule.

Leah: It's true. That is true. If I can't make the text message okay, then nobody's gonna.

Nick: No. No. So I think it really is true. Wedding gift must be a handwritten note, because this? This has all the gravity of me thanking you for a restaurant recommendation. Like, "Oh, Leah. Thanks for that pizza place recommendation you gave me. It was great." That is the emotional weight of this text.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So boo. I say boo.

Leah: I'm gonna second that boo, Nick. Boo! Boo!

Nick: So what it should have been is a note that was like, "Thank you so much for the generous gift. We use it on our honeymoon, and we booked a great restaurant with it and we had the most memorable meal. So thank you so much for making that happen for us."

Leah: Oh, I love that, because then you also say how you used it. So nice, Nick.

Nick: That would be—I mean, I, as a gift giver, would feel that was nice. Like, oh, you used my money for something nice. Or whatever it is.

Leah: Or I'm saving it for, you know, whatever, whatever.

Nick: "We're gonna buy a house." "We're about to do something." Or like, yeah. Or—or even, like, "Oh, thank you so much for the generous gift. We are gonna ensure it's gonna go to a great place."

Leah: Yes. Just something.

Nick: Maybe you don't even know what it is.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: But, like, just some acknowledgement. But yeah, this is rude. And obviously I'm not gonna do anything nice for these people again.

Leah: This one gets a "gross." Gross.

Nick: Gross! Like, when it comes time for, like, a baby shower? "Oh, I don't think I'm gonna be attending. Mm-mmm. I'm not gonna be giving you more gifts."

Leah: I'm gonna send you a cut-and-paste text.

Nick: Yeah. Like, "Oh, thank you for the invitation. We truly appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thank you very much, Nick and Leah."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So you out there, do you have anything that's not cut and pasted? Let us know! We would love your questions, your vents, your repents, your bonkers, cordials of kindness, etiquette crime reports, and all of the fun things we ask for. Visit our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can text it to us or leave us a voicemail: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Nick, I think you should get to go first.

Nick: I would be delighted. So I often go to this restaurant in my neighborhood for, like, weekend-y brunch things. And I'm often solo, and so I just sit at the bar. And I love a nice solo meal at a bar. Like, this is great. And they have a nice breakfast-y thing, and so it's, like, a nice vibe. And so I was there this past weekend, and it actually was a little busy. It was, like, a little surprisingly busy at the hour I was there, and all the bar seats were taken. And there's only, like, eight bar seats, so, you know, it can fill up. But one of the seats was taken by a woman who was just on her laptop. She was just working on her novel. She was clearly done with the brunch part. She didn't even have a coffee. She was just working on her laptop, just working away. This was a WeWork for her. And I say no, that is rude. I do not think we want to tie up a seat in a restaurant with our laptop when other people could use that for the reason it's intended, which is to eat.

Leah: I'm glad this was a vent, because you didn't say up top and I thought, "Is Nick gonna repent?"

Nick: Oh! Oh, don't we just assume? [laughs]

Leah: I mean, I did, but I thought maybe—maybe not.

Nick: Oh, yeah. No, this is a vent. Yeah. Yeah, and it was just like, why is the restaurant not stepping in? Like, is she VIP? Like, who is this person?

Leah: This is literally where the EB would come.

Nick: Yes. Oh, this is why we need the bouncer! Yes! And they would go over to this person and be like, "Oh, are you done eating? Okay, well then you need to close your laptop and leave because somebody else wants waffles."

Leah: [laughs] "This is brunch."

Nick: "This is brunch. And so let's focus."

Leah: Unless it's a really good novel, then we as a society will take the L for you.

Nick: Uh, no. No, because they're just gonna adapt it into a movie, and they're gonna, like, change key plot points, and then they're gonna cast, like, weird people in it. And then you're gonna be like, "Oh, the book was better." But, like, was it? Yeah. No, we can't go down the road. And we can avoid all that if you don't write the novel at all at this restaurant.

Leah: [laughs] I wrote my entire college thesis at a coffee shop.

Nick: And that's fine if other people do not want that seat to drink coffee.

Leah: Nobody wanted it.

Nick: No one wanted your thesis?

Leah: No, everybody wanted my thesis, Nick.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Nobody wanted that seat.

Nick: Okay. Yeah, if nobody wants that seat, then it's fine. But at a busy restaurant to tie up a seat where you're not eating? Yeah, I mean, It just—there is an easier way. Why—why is life so hard sometimes?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Why? Is it just me? Am I the problem? I really think I'm not, but sometimes you think, like, "Oh, maybe the problem is me." So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Well, this is a vent, but also, I actually got to be there when I saw this person have it come back to them.

Nick: Oh, I love comeuppance!

Leah: So it just sort of really delighted me.

Nick: Oh, that's my favorite. Okay, what happened?

Leah: It was a gentle comeuppance, so ...

Nick: I mean, I'll take what I can get.

Leah: So our driveway in our apartment building, our spot is next to the entrance.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So myself and then the other people that are on that side actually exit through the entrance. That's what our side has to do. But the other people go through two gates and go through an exit.

Nick: Okay. So depending on where you're parked, you may go out through the main entrance, or you may go around to another exit. So depending on where your spot is. Got it.

Leah: So if people are exiting and somebody wants to pull in at the same time, the general tradition has been that whoever's pulling in backs back out and lets that person out.

Nick: Yeah, I think we let people exit first. Yeah.

Leah: Yeah, that's what everybody's been doing. So we're exiting.

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: We forget something. We have to check something really quick in the back of the car. Nobody's coming in. There's nobody waiting at this point.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So I'm talking 10 seconds or less.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Literally a reach behind the seat.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Turn back around. This woman—and this happens to be the woman that I had the same problem with in the dryer who took my clothes out before it was done.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: Is honking.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So then we look up and we realize, "Oh, gotta go," even though it literally was—it was probably less than 10 seconds.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So then we're moving. We're moving, we're going. And then she decides it's appropriate to yell.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: So passive aggressive. "Can I get into my own driveway?"

Nick: Oh! Ooh!

Leah: So we leave—maybe with some faces, but we leave. We let her in, whatever. Let it go, even though no need for her to behave that way.

Nick: Yeah, it was a little much.

Leah: We're trying to go. You know what I mean? It's not like we weren't trying to go. Also, you weren't waiting. You didn't wait any amount of time. So the next day, I'm leaving. She's pulling into the driveway. A man is actually—who doesn't live there, is out of his car, sitting on his car, listening to music, just blocking the driveway.

Nick: Oh, okay.

Leah: And then she's trying to get in. And I just was like, this is what you get.

Nick: This is what you get.

Leah: Now you can't even get in.

Nick: Now you can't even get in. So this person was just, like, blocking the driveway and just, like, hanging out

Leah: But I was like, be rude to this person because they don't care at all. Because they're also rude, and now it's a rude off.

Nick: [laughs] Now it's a rude off. Yeah. Who's gonna win?

Leah: Who's gonna win? I don't know. Two people enter. No people enter. Nobody's getting in that driveway.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, society loses.

Leah: But that guy did leave. He just was like—it was like a casual I'll walk into my car, I'll get out. And I'll be like, "This is what you get. You couldn't wait a half a second yesterday, and now you're gonna have to wait five minutes."

Nick: I do like that there is something poetic about it.

Leah: It was beautiful.

Nick: That is beautiful. Yeah. No, sometimes etiquette comeuppance can be beautiful.

Leah: I thank that guy. I go, "Thank you."

Nick: I mean, you should pay him to come back.

Leah: I should be like, "Move as slow as possible. That woman took my clothes out of the dryer before they were dry and before the dryer was finished."

Nick: That's wild.

Leah: Same woman.

Nick: Yeah. No, this person is really unhinged.

Leah: She's just a Rudy Magudzi.

Nick: [laughs] Haven't heard that yet.

Leah: I'm gonna keep coming up with him. Rudesy Magoodsir. That's another one. Rudy McGee.

Nick: Okay. It's a whole family.

Leah: [laughs] You know people are related when they have the same first name.

Nick: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned about beautiful bone plates.

Nick: Yes. The bone plate.

Leah: They are so cute! I also just love plates that fit around other plates. Like, the idea that it's a crescent moon. I almost want four at the same time just to put it all the way around the plate.

Nick: Oh, I mean, I feel like that's just called, like, a chip and dip thing.

Leah: Exactly. And then I literally was like, "And then I'm gonna put dips in it."

Nick: [laughs] Okay. And I learned that even you have a limit to when a text message is appropriate.

Leah: I do, yes.

Nick: I mean, I'm delighted to hear it.

Leah: I'm delighted I could delight you.

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework is just a reminder of the existing homework assignment, which is to send me a letter. But let's talk about actually what the point of this is. It is not just for the validation that I get when I receive your mail.

Leah: It is. It is.

Nick: I mean, it's not not that. But what this is about is I want you to be prepared, because so often the excuse I hear for why people don't send handwritten correspondence, don't send that thank you notice is, like, "Oh, I didn't have cards. I didn't have the stamps. Like, I just wasn't ready." So I want you to be ready. This is like etiquette emergency preparedness. This is like having extra batteries for your flashlight. This is like having extra water at home. This is that, but for etiquette. And so I just want you to make sure you are ready for the thank-you note. So I want you to have those cards, have those stamps, have it ready to roll. And to prove it, you will be proving it to yourself and me by sending me a letter. And so that is the point of this exercise is to make you ready for the etiquette world ahead of you.

Leah: I love the idea that it's an etiquette go bag.

Nick: It is an etiquette go bag, yes. And we all know we should be prepared.

Leah: In which case, I think we could just take a picture of our etiquette go bag and text it. [laughs]

Nick: No. No, Leah. You keep bringing that up, and that is not the point. It's not the point, because also if you do that, that whole thing about validation that I need, I don't get it from you.

Leah: I was gonna say that was—that's where the second part comes in.

Nick: [laughs] So in order to achieve the second part, which is give Nick validation, you must mail it to me. So the address is on our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, and so please do that. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah, it's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: I've done a cordials of kindness to this person before, but I just—you know, when you get, like, doctors and dentists who just are so caring and go out of their way, you know? I just—I actually did a shout out before to all my dentists, and we had a listener from Louisiana who knew my dentist In New York, Dr. Tim Culotta in Louisiana.

Nick: Small world!

Leah: And they wrote and they were like, "He's fantastic." I was like, "Yes, he was." Well, he recommended a dentist here, which I've brought up before, Dr. Israeli in Van Nuys. And I had to go. I keep going, as one does. They regularly go to the dentist. And I have—I mean, I walk in there and I'm a—I'm chaos. I'm terrified. I, like, scooch down in my chair. He and everyone at his office is such a delight. And I can't—as I was leaving this week, I was like, "Thank you for caring about my mouth health and my mental health. You are an incredible group of people. I cannot thank you enough." It just means the world when people who—you know, there are so many caring people in healthcare, and I really appreciate those people so much.

Nick: And for me, I want to read a nice review we just got, which is quote, "Finding this podcast was a highlight of the month. While a shame I didn't know about it before, at least I can, for now, listen to as many shows as I want daily. It is such a pleasure to hear Nick and Leah and their lovely dynamic in addition to all the etiquette nuances that I'm learning. It's also a reassurance that I, too, am not alone in a sometimes crowded world of Lisas and Chads. Thank you for creating and continuing this podcast."

Leah: Oh, I love it so much!

Nick: Isn't that nice? Yes, you are not alone. You are not alone. We are with you.

Leah: Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us!

Nick: Yes. So thank you for that. And hint, hint, we love getting your reviews. So if you haven't already, please go to wherever you listen to our show. There's probably a spot where you can leave us a review, and we would love it.

Leah: We would love it so much.

Nick: Thank you.

Leah: Thank you!