Etiquette, manners, and beyond! In this episode, Nick and Leah tackle asking people if they've had Botox, reaching for the right glassware at dinner parties, stealing packages from mailboxes, and much more. Please follow us! (We'd send you a hand-written thank you note if we had your address.)
Etiquette, manners, and beyond! In this episode, Nick and Leah tackle asking people if they've had Botox, reaching for the right glassware at dinner parties, stealing packages from mailboxes, and much more. Please follow us! (We'd send you a hand-written thank you note if we had your address.)
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Hosts: Nick Leighton & Leah Bonnema
Producer & Editor: Nick Leighton
Theme Music: Rob Paravonian
Nick: Do you reach for the wrong glass? Do you forget to tip your movers? Do your presents come with strings? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out.
Here are things that can make it better
When we have to live together
We can all use a little help
So people don't ask themselves
Were you raised by wolves?
Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.
Leah: And I'm Leah Bonnema.
Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse-bouche.
Leah: [singing] Let's get in it. Surprise me.
Nick: So for today's amuse-bouche, I want to give you some helpful mnemonics for your next dinner party.
Leah: I love a mnemonic.
Nick: So there was this BuzzFeed etiquette quiz that was going around, and a bunch of our listeners took it and sent us their results. And some people got less-than-perfect scores. And it was all based on one of the questions. And so I guess it's a tricky question, and so I want to talk about it. So we're at a dinner party, and you're sort of shoulder to shoulder with all these other people. And there is water glasses for everybody. And there's a water glass on your left and a water glass on your right. And you would like some water. Leah, which water glass is yours?
Leah: I'm visualizing. For those at home, I'm sitting back, I'm imagining I'm at—I think I'm gonna go left.
Nick: Okay, so you're gonna reach to the left, and then you're gonna take a sip.
Nick: Okay. So this is incorrect. And so you are not alone. Many people have trouble with this.
Leah: This is what I do at dinner parties when I sit down at the table, "Was this you or me? What do you think?" [laughs]
Nick: Right. So I want to give you two ways you could remember. So I want you to flash me an "okay" sign with your left hand. And then I want you to flash me an "okay" sign with your right hand. And so your left hand is making a 'b'. That's for bread. And the right hand is making a 'd.' That's for drink.
Nick: And so this is one way you can remember which side the bread is on and which side the drinks are on. Now, that's fine. I also like BMW, like the car. It goes "bread, meal, water." BMW.
Leah: Those are so fun. Honestly delightful.
Nick: So this is how you can remember, and it is sort of arbitrary. I was actually trying to find some historical reason why the water and wine goes on the right and why, like, the bread is on the left. And I could not actually find any definitive answer on this. I think the best I could come up with is that historically, we were more likely to be drinking wine at our meals than, like, having a Parker House roll. So the idea that you would have all your liquor closer to the right side, your right hand, the dominant hand for most people, I guess that's probably why we do that. So BMW, flash the "okay" sign. Either way, bread, meal, water.
Leah: Love it.
Nick: So as long as we're on the subject, let's just talk about cutlery. You go from the outside in, and I think most people do know that when you're presented with, you know, all these forks and spoons and knives, you just select the one that's furthest from the plate first. That's gonna be the one you want to use if the table was set correctly, which is not always the case. But that's an issue for your host, that's not for you. And wine glasses. This is actually a little trickier. So next to your water glass above your knife, there's gonna be wine glasses maybe, and there might be multiple wine glasses if they've set them all out for the meal. And so then the question is, like, which wine glass do you use first? And there's actually two ways this is done. Some people do go inside out and other people go outside in.
Nick: And which one it is kind of depends on where you are and what they're doing. But luckily, you don't actually have to worry about this, because if you were at the type of party in which you have multiple wine glasses, chances are someone is going to pour the wine for you, and they'll just pour it in whatever glass you're supposed to be drinking out of. So don't worry about it. Just put the glass back down where you found it and you'll be fine.
Leah: Seems solid.
Nick: That's it.
Leah: Or not. It's a liquid. [laughs]
Nick: [laughs] Oh, Leah Bonnema.
Leah: I'm the worst.
Nick: And we're back, and now it's time to go deep.
Leah: And far. Far and deep.
Nick: And so for today's deep dive, I want to talk about moving etiquette. So you're in the process of moving cross-country.
Leah: Yes, what a timely, timely, deep dive.
Nick: So you probably have some thoughts about moving etiquette.
Leah: I do. Whoo!
Nick: So for me, I hate moving so much that I don't do it. I've been in my current apartment for more than a decade and, you know, at this point, you're gonna have to carry me out feet first. Like, I don't want to move. That's why I'm here. You know, New York City, terrible place to live. But it's just sort of like the idea of moving is even worse. So you know what? I'm in for the long haul.
Leah: I moved probably—I was trying to remember all the moves yesterday. When I first got here, in the first three years I moved here nine times.
Leah: And then now we've been in the same apartment 13 years.
Nick: Yeah, time flies.
Leah: And it is incredible how much stuff can fit into a small one bedroom.
Nick: Yeah, I was actually remarking, like, Leah's been sort of selling things on Instagram and, like, to friends, and the amount of stuff that just keeps coming out of the woodwork is just like, where has all this been? Like, where are you storing this?
Leah: Well, I haven't been selling it, my boyfriend has. I've been completely off of social media because I'm overwhelmed. [laughs]
Nick: So this is a great segue to how to get rid of stuff, and pawning it off on friends and pretending it's gifts.
Leah: Oh, I didn't pretend anything was a gift. I definitely set aside a few items that were, like, really nice items that for friends that I thought might like. And I took pictures and I said, "Is this an item you might enjoy?"
Nick: I think that's the nice way to do it, yes. I mean, we've definitely gotten a lot of letters from people who received garbage from people where they pretended it was a gift and it was just, oh, I'm just cleaning out my attic.
Leah: Yeah. No, I was very clear. "I'm moving. This is, like, something I think"—you know, you know, your friends. "Would you want this?" And then also I have some furniture that didn't make the move, that's nice furniture that I'm gonna say, "You know, if you can come pick it up, you're welcome to it."
Nick: It's yours.
Leah: But I'm not trying to give it to be—otherwise, I'll just walk it over to Goodwill. I'm not pretending it's a gift. "Hey, do you want this glass table? It's a gift." [laughs]
Nick: [laughs] Would you like this used air conditioner? I mean, stuff. Isn't it a burden? I mean, it's such a burden.
Leah: I went to the shredder so many times this week that the woman who works there—I love her. We've been having a great time. They also have an amazing playlist at this Kinko's. I was like, "I'm gonna give you a discount because this is"—I didn't know that you didn't have to—I'm going to admit this to our listeners. I didn't know that you didn't have to save your taxes forever. So I have all my taxes from every year. But you don't.
Nick: Wow! Okay, so you're going back into the Great Depression era.
Leah: I've been filing taxes since I was, like, 12 years old, so all that got shredded.
Nick: I mean, how liberating! So let's talk about actually the move itself. So I think there is an impulse, depending on how old you are, to ask friends to help you and be like, "Oh, come over. I'll buy pizza and beer. So help me move."
Leah: I definitely think that's true, because I've definitely helped a lot of people move. And also I've had friends—this is the first move I've ever used movers. And I've definitely had friends help me.
Nick: Yes. I mean, I think the older you get, the more likely you are to just hire people to do this.
Leah: Well, also, I can't physically carry my things across country at this point. I've amassed way more things. I think before I had a box, you know?
Nick: Oh, that's true. I guess when you're younger, you have just fewer things.
Leah: I didn't own furniture.
Nick: Right, right. And I think one tricky thing is if you're asked to help someone move, how do you politely decline? Because I've been asked, and I would rather not.
Leah: I don't know if I've declined.
Nick: Well, you wouldn't.
Nick: You're incapable of declining. [laughs]
Leah: But also nobody asks me anymore. Everybody's like, "Leah's got a bad back."
Nick: Yeah, she looks—she looks infirm.
Leah: I don't. I look very rugged, and that's why I've often moved people. But I think you can just say, "I'm not available."
Nick: Yeah, I think being busy is good. I have had someone be annoyed with me when I was unavailable to help them move, and they're like, "Well, I would have helped you." And it's sort of like, "No, we're not gonna have that conversation." It's like, "Yes, you might have helped me, but I was never gonna ask you because I'm not gonna do that to you." Like, I'm polite enough to not ask you. So that's how I think about that.
Leah: It always is a weird thing. I've definitely had people help me move in. I've helped those same people move. I think you have to know, is this a friendship where this person will help you? Is this a "help you move" friendship? And the other person who helps, I helped move. It was very straightforward. She was on the first floor. She just needed a few people to get her out on one in a very short period of time. And it was she didn't overburden her friends.
Nick: That's true. I guess a one and done, "Can you just help get these boxes from this level, no stairs, into the back of a van? It'll probably take 45 minutes." That's a different commitment than a eight-hour moving day while we're still packing boxes.
Leah: Yeah. I really actually don't mind, but I mean, know what you're asking people. Do you live in a walkup? Is it the full day? Are you saying—you know?
Nick: Right. Yes. I mean, I guess I'm always happy to help. Am I? I don't know.
Leah: I'm happy to help with boxes. I'm not gonna carry a couch. It's just not gonna happen.
Nick: Yeah, that feels unsafe for me.
Leah: It feels unsafe, and I'm for sure gonna, like, tag on your walls and then worry about it for three weeks.
Nick: So, all right. We've hired professional movers, great. How has that been? What tips do you have for people? Like, what's the etiquette around this?
Leah: This one was, of course, for me anxiety producing because long distance movers are different than local movers, because you have three sets of movers. You have the movers that come to your house and take it out and take it to, like, a 16-wheeler place, like a big truck company. So you have the first set of people that come to your house and take it. Then you have the people that are driving it.
Leah: And then you have the people at the other end that unload it. So, like, if you had movers for a day, you're tipping them off for the day. They pick it up, they drive it 10 blocks or whatever, and then they unload it. We have three different sets of movers. So for my research, I tipped the people at each location, $5 to $10 per hour per person, with a little bit extra for the person in charge. I'm in a walk-up, and the one guy who was wrapping things did such an excellent job that I upped that just because it's a walk-up. I felt like they went out of their way. There was some miscommunication up top. We fixed it. We worked together. But what it seemed to say was you tip on the hourly.
Nick: Yeah, I guess that's probably a good way to calculate it. And that feels fair, because that probably worked out to, what? 40 or 50 bucks a person? Like, what was the dollar amount at the end of the day?
Nick: Yeah, that feels like the right zone. And you definitely need to give the tip individually. You cannot tip, like, the foreman and hope that he'll distribute it. Like, don't do that.
Leah: Yeah, I went to my bank and I got those little envelopes, and I had all the cash all ready.
Nick: And then, yeah, I guess if you have a long-distance move where the movers at one end are different than the movers at the other end, like, yes, you have to tip those people, too.
Nick: Because, like, we don't pool tips.
Leah: And inevitably, I just think it's fair if you're in a walk-up to throw a little extra on top if you have it.
Nick: Yes. Yeah.
Leah: I put it into my budget, you know, because the reason that we're not moving ourselves, is because I didn't want to carry furniture down the stairs. I realize how horrible it is.
Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think any time you deviate from sort of "standard," quote unquote, where it's a little more effort, you know, there's a tight turn in a stairwell, or you have some incredibly heavy antique something, or super fragile stuff and they didn't actually break it, then yeah, you should definitely, like, amp up your tip a little bit.
Leah: And I tried to—I mean, I had coffee ready with disposable cups if anybody wanted one, I didn't know how long we were gonna be hanging out together.
Nick: I mean, that's a good point. I think you should offer refreshments. If it's like a day-long move, I think you should offer water or coffee is very nice or snacks. I mean, I think it's nice to be sort of hospitable.
Leah: Yeah, and they were in my—you know, they're in our home, and I didn't know. I've never used movers, I had no idea how it went. I was actually very anxious about it. So we had coffee ready, and then we had cups and water in case people wanted refreshments. It's a hard job.
Nick: Yeah. No, I think that's very nice. And you want them to do a good job for you, so going out of your way to make them miserable is, like, not a great strategy.
Leah: Yeah, I think everybody's stressed out.
Nick: Now what about letting your neighbors know? Did you let anybody know that a move was happening in advance?
Leah: I told our landlord so he knew that there would be people in the building.
Nick: I mean, I guess for suburban moves, it's a bigger deal when you have, like, a big truck that pulls up to your house, blocking your neighbor's driveway.
Nick: That's probably a slightly different issue than in New York City, where it's just sort of like an apartment building.
Leah: And nobody will talk—nobody will talk to us here. So ...
Nick: Right. And I love it. Now, what about a housecooling party? Did you have any housecooling?
Leah: This happened so fast that I haven't even a) processed it or b) been able to—I'm reaching out to friends to tell them.
Nick: Somebody actually has emailed us asking whether or not housecooling parties were okay or not. And I guess a housecooling party is like the opposite of a housewarming. Like, when you're leaving your house. I guess it's fine. I don't see any problem with that, right?
Leah: I don't see why it would be a bad—you're just celebrating with people that you like and you're onto a new location.
Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a super casual event, so I think we don't want to pretend it's something that it's not, because you don't have probably any furniture left and you're eating off of paper plates.
Leah: Yeah. And nobody needs any more things.
Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Do not bring a gift to a housecooling party. I think that's probably the one party where you don't have to bring anything.
Leah: Yeah, people are like, "I just spent 8,000 trips to Salvation Army.”
Nick: Right. Yeah, don't bring me more stuff. I guess, bring ice. That's what you can bring.
Leah: Some sage. Bring some sage.
Nick: And then I guess when you arrive, it's nice to sort of let people know what your new address is. So it's sort of a very traditional, formal thing to send out, like change of address notices. And there's all sorts of etiquette rules around that. But certainly, like, letting people know that it's happened I think is nice, so you don't, like, surprise people. Like, "Oh, I didn't know you moved."
Leah: I do, I absolutely agree. And at the same time, when it happens so fast, there's also nothing you can—you try to reach out to people and then you're like—I've always been very aware and people say, "I'm moving," and I, you know, give them leeway to be flexible on everything. But now that we're in the middle of it, it's very overwhelming. So if people forget to mention it, understand that they are in a pile of stuff from 1985 that they can't believe they've carried since they were a child.
Leah: The amount of Star Wars items in this house is unbelievable.
Nick: Well, may the force be with you on your move.
Leah: Thank you so much.
Nick: And we're back, and now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.
Nick: So our first question, oh! [laughs]
Leah: Wrap your head around it. Get it? Get it? Get it?
Leah: Because it involves a scarf wrap.
Nick: So just stick with me. This story takes you on a journey, a couple twists and turns. Quote, "My oldest friend of 20 years requested I knit a scarf for him, which I did. A few days later, we chatted on the phone and he told me that he loved the scarf, and his girlfriend also loved the scarf and now they're sharing it. My jaw dropped when I heard this for multiple reasons, all of which he's aware of. Reason number one, I am very selective about who I knit items for. I do not sell my items. This is a hobby I share with those I love, not a business endeavor. I do not use cheap materials, so the items made are high quality. Number four, his girlfriend is a garbage person. She constantly lies to him, and he complains to me about it regularly. And finally, number five, if and when they break up, I would not be surprised if the girlfriend claimed the scarf as her own. And this is something I want to avoid. He has alluded that they are probably calling it quits soon. My friend then says in this phone call that his girlfriend would like a scarf of her own, and even offered to pay for it. I do not know the girlfriend. I've never met her, spoken to her or even seen a photo of this woman.
Nick: “I sidestepped his request by saying that this is a seasonal hobby for me, and I still have a personal project I want to finish. But the next day I felt bad for lying. So I sent a text message basically saying, quote, 'I lied. I only knit items for good friends and family. When I knit something, my love, time and effort goes into making it. So I'm sure you can understand why I don't make things for people I don't know, even if they pay. For this reason, I will have to humbly refuse to make anything for your girlfriend and stress that the scarf is made for you, not something to share. I can't keep you from sharing, but I can at least make my feelings known.' I sent the text yesterday and have yet to receive a response. Have I overstepped my boundaries? I realize that what happens to a gift after it's given is not my business. However, in this situation I could not help but speak up. I felt like a piece of me was being given away to a dumpster fire of a human being who does not deserve to wear a beautiful hand-knit item. Your thoughts and guidance are greatly appreciated."
Leah: I'd like to start by saying this letter writer uses two of my favorite terms, which is "garbage person," and "dumpster fire of a human."
Leah: I love those descriptions. I've used them often in my day to day.
Leah: And so I just want to do a shout-out that I appreciate the language choice.
Nick: My first question is, why do we have so much venom for this person that we've never met? Like, I'm all for not liking people. That's fine. But, like, at least meet them first.
Leah: I think it has to do with the way they treat this person's friend.
Leah: That or our letter writer—and here is a venture that maybe we shouldn't cover on this podcast. That our letter writer and the person she knitted the scarf for have more of a past than is being shared with us. And they're very protective of this person.
Nick: Okay, yeah. No, that's fair. I mean, definitely the fact that we cannot possibly allow this woman to touch this scarf definitely suggests that there's more to this story.
Leah: Feels like there's more to this story. Also, I do get that feeling sometimes when you—somebody asks you to do something for them and it is actually very time consuming, and then they behave in a way that makes you feel like it was trivialized.
Nick: Sure. I mean, I feel like we're celebrating the scarf and we love it so much, and we want actually more scarf from you. So I don't think we're trivializing our letter writer's time.
Leah: No, I feel like that's maybe how she felt it was. Like, this person asked for it for them in particular, and they made it for them in particular, and now they're just spreading it around.
Nick: Oh, I see, Okay, yeah. I mean, I can—I see why our letter writer is annoyed. So what do we do about this?
Leah: I do think that if a gift is given to you, maybe you don't flaunt that. It's you're giving it to somebody else.
Nick: Yes. I guess that was a mistake there, that we should not have indicated that we have been so liberal with the use of the gift, I guess.
Leah: But I also do think that when you give a gift, it's then out of your hands.
Nick: Yes. Literally and figuratively. Yeah, you don't want to give a gift and have strings attached, because, like, that sort of becomes less of a gift.
Leah: I also want you to know that I appreciate your use of language with "strings," because it is a scarf.
Nick: Yeah, I think we can't give gifts and have strings attached and expect it's a true gift, right?
Leah: I think we could silently hate that person, but I don't know if we address it. We could just say, "Oh, I don't want to make a scarf for somebody. You know, I just do it for close friends. It's time consuming."
Nick: Yeah. No, the correct response here would have just been like, "Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that everyone loves my knit skill. Unfortunately, I just don't have time. But thank you." Like, leave it there. The detail about why I don't want to do it, it feels like it might have been intentional, you know? That we want to make it clear that the reason why I don't want to knit is because I hate your girlfriend's guts.
Leah: Yeah, which honestly makes me giggle a little bit. It really—it tickles me.
Nick: Yeah, I think that was sort of intended in her response, because the idea that we quote, "humbly refuse," that's a pretty aggressive phrase.
Leah: Oh, I think our letter writer has made their feelings very clear.
Leah: "Also, I can't keep you from sharing, but I'm gonna let my feelings known." I actually really enjoyed this. This is—I would love to meet our letter writer.
Nick: I can't keep you from doing something, but you're disappointing me.
Leah: [laughs] I can't stop you, but I'm gonna let you know you're horrid and wrong. But, do you.
Nick: Yeah. So I guess at this point, the damage has been done and the text was sent. And I think we would just want to apologize to our friend. If you feel like you've overstepped, if you're writing us about it, if you think you've done something wrong, maybe you have. So apologize for it.
Leah: I don't think that our letter writer wants to apologize. I think our letter writer wants us to say "Ugh, this girlfriend is horrible. She shouldn't wear your beautiful scarf." So I'm not for an insincere apology, but I think you can understand why your friend was like, maybe that was too far. And maybe going forward, don't make a scarf for somebody where, if they share it you're gonna be upset.
Nick: Well, but then does that mean you can't give any gifts to your friend because you are worried that it's gonna be shared?
Leah: Well, you just got to give a gift that—I mean, I'm sure she spent days on this. Days!
Nick: Okay, so it's the fact that the gift was time consuming. So it's not just like I want to give a crystal gravy boat to my friend, and unfortunately, the girlfriend is also gonna use it to pour gravy?
Leah: Yeah. No, it's because she spent days and time and effort, and then this person who continues to call her and tells her what a piece of poo-poo his girlfriend is, then takes her time and days and gives the piece of poo-poo the scarf.
Nick: So she did actually send a link of examples of her work, and it is wonderful. Like, she's a great knitter.
Nick: I'd be a little nervous about receiving one from her in case I, you know, used it the wrong way or let someone else look at it. [laughs]
Leah: I totally hear what you're saying, and I do think probably she overstepped.
Nick: She did. She did.
Leah: But I also, for some reason, I love the—I don't know why, I really feel like this person is not an apologizer. So she leaned in. She sent a "No," and then was like, "You know, I want to be more explicit on why I said 'No.'"
Nick: Yes. "I feel like I was a little too subtle before, and so I want to really underline the point about how much of a garbage person your girlfriend is. And that the fact that she even looks at that scarf makes me disgusted."
Leah: [laughs] There's just something about the commitment that makes me—you know, hats off.
Nick: Yeah. Go big or go home.
Leah: I also think this is to note this happens a lot in friendships where one person turns to a friend and craps on their significant other constantly.
Leah: And then the friend is not allowed to have negative feelings about the significant other, because inevitably go back to them, or you meet them and you're supposed to be nice.
Leah: Just know that if you're constantly dumping on your significant other to a friend, that friend is at a certain point going to take on your negative feelings to them about them.
Nick: Oh, that's true, yeah. Because also, I mean, if you have a horrible girlfriend and your friend was like, "She must be great," it's like, well, whose side are you on?
Nick: So, yeah, that's true. That's true. I think our letter writer may have just taken that slightly too far. But hey.
Leah: I definitely think she took it too far. I want to say I categorically agree with you on that, but I also for some reason applaud her. I mean, she's so committed to it that you're like, "Be you. At least people know where they stand."
Nick: Yeah, live your truth. Our next question is, quote, "Growing up, my family considered it to be improper for couples to sit side by side at a restaurant booth because they can't look at one another while speaking. I was told that when two people are eating together, they should always sit across from each other. My boyfriend, on the other hand, thinks it's totally fine to sit side by side and even thinks it's cute. Thoughts?"
Leah: I hadn't actually seen people sit on the same side until I was an adult. I've always seen across, and then it happened to me once and I was like, ooh, I never even realized we could do this. So fun!
Nick: What do you mean it happened to you? It was just like you were surprised?
Leah: Somebody came—I was like on a date and someone came and sat next to me. And I was like, oh, I didn't even know this was out there.
Nick: This can be done!
Leah: [laughs] I don't think it's rude.
Nick: So I was actually looking to see if any of the etiquette greats had weighed in on this, and I couldn't find anything from Judy or Emily or Amy, any of them who, like, weighed in on this question. So if they have, I missed it. It feels like it's fine. It's not inherently wrong, right?
Leah: It feels totally fine.
Nick: I think why people are bothered is that, if you're playing footsie the whole time or you're doing, like, a Lady and the Tramp spaghetti thing then, like, that can be potentially distracting to other diners.
Leah: But technically, you could do that across the table as well.
Nick: That is also true, yes. I do know that waiters hate the side by side because couples who do it tend to eat more slowly, and it's harder to turn the table, I'm told.
Leah: Very interesting.
Nick: So I don't know if that's true, if we've done any statistical analysis on that.
Leah: We like to bring up as many considerations as possible. But I mean, you're on a date, you're at a diner, you're getting some burgers and fries and a shake. You sit on the same side, maybe there's a little jukebox. That seems kind of cute.
Nick: Wow, 1957!
Leah: [laughs] I'm classic.
Nick: So our next question is, quote, "Is it rude to ask someone if they've had Botox?"
Leah: [gasps] Yes!
Nick: Yeah, sure is.
Nick: Mm-hmm, yeah. So I actually Googled this. I was like, I'm assuming the answer is yes for everybody. And there's a number of plastic surgery websites that have whole pages on their website devoted to the question: what to do when people ask you if you've had Botox?
Nick: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess this is a thing that comes up quite a bit, where people are just like, "Have you had Botox?" And so they say you have two choices. You can either deny it and just say, "Oh, I'll take it as a compliment," or you can fess up and say, "I'm glad you noticed." That's, like, the consensus.
Nick: So you can take one of these paths, sure.
Leah: I was thinking about this question, and I thought an interesting thing was sometimes people want to try something and they want to ask their friends if they've done it to get what's it like or ...
Nick: Oh, market research.
Leah: Yeah. So I had, like, a facial for the first—like, a big facial for the first time. And I asked my girlfriends. I wasn't like, "Hey, you. Your skin looks different than it used to." But I was like, "Has anybody—you know, I want to try this. Has anybody done it?" So ...
Leah: If you're asking because you want to try something, that's a different kind of an ask.
Nick: That does feel more different, yes. Like, "Oh, I'm interested in trying Botox. Have you done it? What was your experience? I have questions for you."
Nick: Okay. Rather than, like, "You look surprisingly more well-rested today."
Leah: "You look significantly younger than I remember. Did you change your face?" [laughs]
Nick: And I think the reason why it's rude, I was trying to figure out, like, obviously it's rude. I guess, is just because it's a comment on someone's physical appearance. Is that what it is? Is that why it's a violation?
Leah: Well, it's also, if somebody doesn't volunteer information, it's just it seems weird to ask.
Nick: Yeah, it feels personal. And also if you suspect, they probably have, right?
Leah: Or I mean, actually, a myriad of things could have happened.
Nick: That's true. Although you know what's actually more rude than asking if someone has had Botox? Telling someone that they should. Which is a true thing that has happened to me.
Nick: Yes! Is that not shocking?
Leah: I'm shocked, I'm shocked.
Nick: Shocking. Yeah. No, I had a friend who was like, "Oh, yeah. You should totally consider getting Botox here and here." And they, like, pointed to all the spots on my face that could benefit from Botox. And I was like, "Thank you so much for the constructive feedback."
Leah: I don't believe you have—you glow.
Nick: I mean, what is the point of staying out of the sun for the last 60 years if not to have dewey, collagen-enriched skin that I do? But yeah, to tell me that I should consider Botox? I mean, come on. So do you have questions for us about anything? Let us know.
Leah: Let us know.
Nick: You can let us know through our website, wereyouraisedbywolves.com, or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message, (267) CALL-RBW.
Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.
Leah: Vent or Repent!
Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?
Leah: I was gonna try to go for three weeks in a row of repenting, but I'm gonna—I've got a last-minute vent coming in.
Nick: Hey, eleventh hour. I'll take it.
Leah: So also it's on theme. It's about moving. So we're moving on the 15th.
Leah: It's very last minute. Besides utilities, I don't even know who has my address. It's been very—also we're moving to the West Coast. And unlike New York, the mail is outside the building.
Nick: How does that work?
Leah: I don't even know how outside works. So we have a friend in the building, who this morning texted us a picture. And he's been out of town. He came back and something was sent to me. I don't know what it is. I don't know ...
Nick: Oh, this is your new building on the West Coast.
Leah: At the new building on the West Coast.
Nick: In this outdoor, exposed-to-the-elements mailbox.
Leah: Exposed, outdoor—exposed to people.
Leah: Because if it doesn't fit in the box, it's just outside.
Nick: I mean, what a world!
Leah: So anyway, our friend is like, "Hey, I've been gone. I just came—it seems like something was sent for you." And so somebody stole my package, opened it, took out what was in the package and then left the box. So I know that something did come for me.
Nick: Okay. [laughs]
Leah: And it was stolen. So I also can't tell what it is, because the part of the box where the "From" has been torn off.
Nick: Oh, handy. Okay.
Leah: So I also don't even know who has my address yet, because this all happened so fast. So in many ways, it's almost like a thank you to the robber, because now I know that things can't be sent if I'm not home that day. Obviously, now we're in a situation where it's sign for delivery, or I get a postal box or it's like an Amazon Dropbox. But I think it's—there's just something hilarious and very insane about a human being that would steal your stuff and then leave the box.
Leah: I mean, I'm gonna open it up. I'm gonna decide if I want it, and then I'm gonna leave the box just to—it's like a calling card. I'm gonna let you know I was here and I took your stuff.
Nick: Yeah. It's a bit of a horse head in a bed, yeah.
Leah: I was like, "What is going on?"
Nick: But also, the amount of effort. I mean, it would just be easier to take the whole box with you. Like, you're committing a crime. So just, like, take the whole thing.
Leah: Just take the—that's exactly—now I can fingerprint that with my little dusting kit. Obviously, I'm not going to, but I could. And it's just that extra step of being like, "I want to let you know I was—" because I would never have known. I don't even know what it was. But they want to let me know.
Nick: I mean, I appreciate that they took the thing and didn't actually, like, decide that whatever you ordered online was, like, so terrible that they weren't interested.
Leah: They were like, "No thank you."
Nick: They were like, "Oh, I don't like this chenille sweater. I'm just gonna leave it."
Leah: Meanwhile, I haven't ordered anything, so I don't even know what it was. My curiosity is piqued. But ...
Nick: I know! Oh, now I'm thinking like, what was it? What prize?
Leah: What prize is no longer mine, but I have the box?
Nick: I mean, maybe that is it. Maybe the box is the thing. Maybe you were just sent a box.
Nick: It's performance art. So for me, I would like to vent, and I would like to vent about two unrelated email experiences this week that just remind us that we have so much work to do when it comes to email etiquette. So the first thing I want to vent about is people who you leave a voicemail for. So like, "Hey, I'm calling you. So here's my number. Call me back." And then they send you an email back saying, "Got your message, please call me." And it's like, no, no, no. Did you just reply to my voicemail with an email where I now have to call you again? That is not how voicemail works.
Leah: No! What just happened?
Nick: That is not how voicemail works. We don't do that. How is this more efficient or, like, what is happening? So that's number one. Number two related is I actually reached out to this company about potentially hiring them to do some work and wanted to get a little more info. And the next day, the CEO actually writes back and says, quote, "Before we exchange any information, I think it's best that we meet over the phone. Call me today at four o'clock Eastern Time." Period. And it's like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Am I free today at four o'clock Eastern Time for you? Are you the President of the United States? Should I reschedule my day around this?" Like, what is that demand?
Leah: What is going on?
Nick: What is that? I mean, call me today at this specific time. No permission, not, "Is it convenient?" "Would you be available if—" or even just say, "Oh, I'll be available after four o'clock today if you want to try catching me. Let me know if that works." Like, I'll take that. But to demand that I call you at a specific date and time? I mean, come on.
Leah: Come on!
Nick: Come on. And then spoiler alert, I eventually did catch up with him by phone—not at the four o'clock he wanted—but he was so rude, so rude, just about everything. I was like, oh, I cannot possibly give you any money. Like, I cannot hire you. We cannot be in business together. Like, this is just not gonna work out. So I politely said, "Thank you so much for your time." And that was it.
Leah: Why would a person behave that way? It's obscene.
Nick: Well, I mean, why would a person behave obscenely?
Leah: I know, but he want—even if you wanted to—even if you were just a rude person who was demanding, it's in his better interest. Why would he not want someone to hire him? It's crazy.
Nick: Yeah, short sighted. But, you know, a lot of bad etiquette is short sighted, you know? A lot of people who do bad etiquette things do not think about the long-term consequences of their actions, and how it affects them and their relationships. So just—it's a lesson. It's a lesson for everybody. Just be polite.
Nick: Ugh. Exactly. So Leah, what have we learned?
Leah: Oh, I learned my hands are going to guide me through which is my drink.
Leah: Yes. And BMW.
Leah: And BMW, which is—I'm just gonna say it every place I sit down, even if it's like a fast-food restaurant and set my place. It's going to be so fun.
Nick: I mean, whatever it takes to make sure you don't drink out of someone else's glass, I'll take it.
Nick: And I learned that if I'm going to send you a box of Harry and David pears, it's gonna have to come attached to somebody with handcuffs, and you're gonna have to sign for it in person.
Leah: It's a whole new world.
Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.
Leah: Thank you, Nick. Looking forward to the pears.
Nick: Oh, my pleasure. And thanks to you out there for listening. If I had your address, I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery.
Leah: He would.
Nick: So for your homework this week, I want you to send us your questions. I want you to try and stump us. I want your most insane etiquette stories. I just want to hear from you. So please send those in, and we'll see you next time.
Nick: All right, Leah, it's time for a Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!
Leah: I actually want to do a thank you to Zoom. I feel like so often we're all like, "Oh, Zoom," but also it has allowed me to reconnect with people that live in other countries, that I went to college with and haven't seen for a long time, to see people and feel like I've been able to keep up a relationship. We get to work together often on Zoom. I'm actually very grateful for it.
Nick: That's true, yeah. Zoom actually really has sort of changed the way we communicate, for better or for worse.
Leah: I feel much closer and, like, I've seen people, even though I haven't seen them. And I'm very grateful for that.
Nick: And for me, I would also like to talk about technology. Specifically, I want to say thank you to Lauren. She's one of our super fans, and each week she has been gathering people together on Clubhouse—which is this new app that all the kids are doing—to talk about our latest episode. So it's sort of like a book club, but for our podcast. And it is so nice and kind of amazing to think that people like our show enough to not just even listen to it, but then to actually want to gather other people for a scheduled time to talk about it more. So I'm very touched by that.
Leah: That is so, so cool.
Nick: So really love that and thank you.
Leah: Thank you.
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