Apologizing in Mongolia, Speaking for Other People, Lying to Waiters, and More

Nick: Do you apologize the wrong way? Do you cause 'reply all' email storms? Do you send regards without permission? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it.

Nick: So for today's amuse bouche, I want to take you to Mongolia.

Leah: Oh, thank you! I've never been.

Nick: I was gonna ask, have you ever been?

Leah: I haven't.

Nick: Because, I mean, you've been to some interesting places, like Iraq, Greenland. So I felt like, oh, Mongolia could be on that list for you.

Leah: It could be on that list, but unfortunately it is not.

Nick: Okay. Well, we're gonna go there today. And it is actually kind of wonderful. I've only been to Ulaanbaatar, but I had a great time. And I actually went outside of the city and spent a few nights sort of in the wilderness, which was incredible.

Leah: I was gonna say, didn't you, like, sleep in a yurt?

Nick: Well, they call them "gers" there but yes. I went to sort of a ger camp resort. But it was actually at the end of the season, so me and my friend were the last guests at this hotel resort thing.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And the highlight was you would go to the, like, dining space, and they served the exact same soup at every menu. And they kept saying the name of it, but we couldn't quite tell what it was. We couldn't quite make it out. And we were too embarrassed to, like, ask. And so they would present this carrot soup, and they'd be like, "kreshe potage?"

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And we're like, what? Like, "kreshe potage." And so we were there, I think, for two nights. And so we had this soup—I guess we had three meals. We probably had this soup, like, seven times. But I really loved being in Mongolia. I rode horses. I kind of experienced the majesty of their landscape. The city itself is wonderful. So highly recommend.

Leah: That's so cool!

Nick: And so I want to tell you about a very special etiquette thing that as far as I know only happens in Mongolia. So Leah, you're in Mongolia and you accidentally step on somebody's foot.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: And so the question is, how do you apologize?

Leah: Well, just because this is the setup, I have to assume that I wouldn't say what I would normally say.

Nick: That is correct. Yes. You are being set up here.

Leah: So what I would normally say—not in Mongolia, because I've already been told that it only is there, is I would say, "Oh my gosh, so sorry I stepped on your foot."

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, that would not do the trick.

Leah: So that's not it. So I must have to say—I also think "I'm so sorry your foot was under my foot" is wrong.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, that's—that's not a winner.

Leah: You know, you can say something like, "How lucky am I to have touched your foot?"

Nick: You actually don't say anything. It's what you do.

Leah: Should I touch their foot with my hand?

Nick: [laughs] Oh, wow! So what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to reach out and give them a handshake.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: This is polite.

Leah: So I step on their foot, I turn around, I just reach out and give them a handshake?

Nick: Yeah. Get that hand right out there. Handshake. Yeah. And this happens between strangers. This would happen on public transit. This is pretty widely recognized across Mongolia. Now of course like all customs, execution varies, but generally speaking, yeah, accidentally bump somebody's foot? Get that hand out there, give a handshake.

Leah: Wow! I like that a lot!

Nick: And I was looking into, like, why is this? Why is this? And a lot of different explanations. I think one that made a lot of sense to me is that historically Mongolians were nomadic people. And so you have very close quarters in the gers or the camps or the wagons or whatever it was. And so the chances of accidentally bumping into somebody were pretty high, and the chances of that sort of escalating into a conflict were also pretty high. And so this developed as a way to sort of diffuse conflict. And I read some, like, travel blog that was saying that if you don't, quote, "It might mean you need revenge and want to have a war with them. It could be misinterpreted as an act of aggression."

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: So yeah, get that handshake out real fast!

Leah: Want to go to war with them?

Nick: Right?

Leah: I mean, that is big time!

Nick: Yeah. And there is a variation where instead of doing a handshake, you touch each other's wrists. So apparently that's a thing that happens. I've never seen that, but I am told this is an option for some people. But to fail to do it? Totally rude.

Leah: Well, it's a call to war.

Nick: Yeah. And nobody wants that. I mean, war? War is rude.

Leah: Oh, so rude! I actually just saw a handshake the other day that, like, stuck with me because it was so, like, oh, the handshake has so much. I was in traffic. I'm driving by these two men who obviously had an accident, and they'd pulled over to the side.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And they were, like, arms up and talking and da, da, da. And I'm driving pretty slow, so I got to see. You know, I can't hear them, but I'm seeing the body language and da, da, da, da. And then one man reached his hand out, and then the other man shook it.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And then you were like, they're de-escalating, and they are reaching an agreement to behave in a gentlemanly fashion.

Nick: Yeah. There is something kind of lovely about this gesture. Yes. And so this is true in Mongolia. And another explanation I think is interesting is that in a lot of cultures, the feet are considered impure, dirty. And so you don't, like, show the bottoms of your feet to people in a lot of places in the world. Like, that's super rude. You would never, like, put your feet up on a desk in a lot of places in the world. Like, super rude. And so the idea of, like, oh, I touched you with my foot, like, you need to quickly rectify that and sort of apologize for that gesture, because yeah, I just sort of touched you with the thing we all agree is they're, like, super dirty. So a handshake is the way they've decided this is how we acknowledge so sorry.

Leah: I really like that. I feel like handshake to me really means more than gentlemanly, it means, like, sort of on my honor, like, I'm giving you my word, you know?

Nick: Yes. And I think that is the case here. It's on my honor, we're good.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Like, our relationship is solid. There's nothing further here.

Leah: I like that so much.

Nick: And just a note to our Mongolian listeners—and we do have listeners in Mongolia, so hello. When you visit, like, a place like New York City, don't do this. If you did this on the New York City subway, that would definitely be unusual. So definitely this is a Mongolia-only thing.

Leah: It would be interesting, though, to see if somebody could breach that gap of how much—because people don't touch each other.

Nick: No.

Leah: To be like, oh—because I understand what a person would mean if they go to shake my hand.

Nick: Yes. If you bumped into me and then reached out and gave me a handshake, like, I would get what was happening on some level. Sure.

Leah: Yeah. Or we're making peace.

Nick: Right. But yes, it would catch me off guard if I didn't know this.

Leah: It would just be interesting to see what would happen.

Nick: Well, okay. Mongolian listeners, next time you're in New York City, if this happens, report back.

Leah: Or Nick, you could just do it for fun.

Nick: Oh, no. But thank you.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and onto those computers.

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, we got a wonderful email, and it's quote, "I could really use your help in regard to email etiquette. I had been a trucker for about 25 years, but now I'm an ad salesperson at a small town newspaper. How exciting! I know. It's thrilling. Long story short, I have no real email etiquette, and I feel like when I'm emailing I am a caveman. Want to hit the high points of how I can be a bit less wolf-like? Recently, I sent a BCC email and, and did not send the attachment. The boss says to immediately follow it up with an 'Oops, my mistake. Here is a resend.' Do you have any solid advice?"

Leah: I was so excited when we got this email.

Nick: Yeah, you were.

Leah: I really was. Because I think it's, like, a great—we've discussed email in different—at different times. I think it's nice to do a refresher, and to bring it all together.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: And it's like an intro. Also, as I was telling Nick, I've always been slightly obsessed with people that drive trucks.

Nick: Okay. You just love CB radios?

Leah: Well, I think just as somebody who drives so much—like, obviously I don't drive anywhere near as much as a trucker. But ...

Nick: No. [laughs]

Leah: Not at all. But I mean, I've driven across America five times last year.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that's pretty good.

Leah: And, you know, you would always see, like, the trucks that, you know, when they're sleeping over, or they're pulling over for a rest. And, you know, it's so many different landscapes and different weather and, you know, and it's people are out on their own, and I see some people have dogs. And it's just like an interesting life to think about.

Nick: Totally.

Leah: And then my friend is a trucker, and she actually had, like, a little back room in her truck, and then she would sometimes bring a friend. You know, it's just so interesting. So then I just love this whole—this whole "I was trucker for a long time and now I'm working in a newspaper and let's do an email refresh." I said, "Yes, this is perfect. I love this person."

Nick: Yes. I think based on the emails that I get, we have not solved the problems of email etiquette yet. And so I think a refresher? Not a bad idea. Also, the first thing I wrote down for our letter-writer here was "Welcome—and sorry—to the world of email."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Because it's the best thing to ever have happened and it's the worst. I mean, it truly is the best of times and the worst of times. A tale of two emails.

Leah: [laughs] A tale of two emails. A tale of the internet.

Nick: Really. I mean, seriously. So what's the first on your list then? What do we want to tell our trucker friend?

Leah: The first on my list is not what I think is actually the order of things.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But it's what I learned—we talked about on the show.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: It was something that I'd struggled with and I had to, like, reach out to a friend—obviously, this is before Nick.

Nick: Before I came into your life and fixed it all?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: So I'd reached out to someone, and I had to—somebody introduced me to somebody else on an email, or somebody was, like, passing something and both of us were on the email. And then I didn't want the other person to be on the emails anymore, so I didn't blow up their email box. I didn't know what to do. And so it was moving somebody to the BCC.

Nick: Moving you to BCC. Okay, yeah. Let's talk about it, because I think that is the thing I'm seeing most often these days that is not being done correctly. And let's just review the basics.

Leah: Yes. So you just say, "Chad, thank you so much for introducing us," or "Chad, thank you so much. I'm moving you to the BCC." And then you start the message to the person that you're gonna go back and forth with.

Nick: Yes. And in that email that includes Chad, Chad's email address is in the BCC area. So he will receive your email, but the thread moving forward will not include him.

Leah: Yes, he has been taken out of the To section and moved to the BCC section.

Nick: So yes, the blind carbon copy. This is very important. Yes. So yeah, anytime there's an email introduction, anytime you want to just sort of do a handoff, the "moving you to BCC," this is what you do. And you just say that in the email. "Hey. Thanks, Leah. (Moving you to BCC.)"

Leah: And for some reason, when that was explained to me that that's all I have to do, I really felt so much more confident about emails, because that came up so much.

Nick: It really comes up more often than you think. Yeah.

Leah: I love it.

Nick: But the first thing on my list—which I think is related—is remember your training. Just remember your training. Etiquette is all about being mindful of other people, and so that includes people's time. And so wasting people's time with email, like, that's always gonna be rude. So I think as long as you can be respectful of people's time and their eyeballs, that is really gonna solve a lot of etiquette problems.

Leah: I love the idea of being respectful of people's eyeballs.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, for sure! Yeah. No, if you send me an email that has a solid block of text, a 2,000-word paragraph, my eyeballs, they hurt so bad trying to read and to figure out what do you want from me. So just make it easier on my eyeballs.

Leah: I think that's such an important note, exactly that. Make it easy for them to figure out what you want from them.

Nick: Yes. What is the point of this email, please?

Leah: What's second on your list?

Nick: Well, related to that, clear subject lines. I don't want "Hi," or "Following up." Like, that's vague. That wastes my time. Like, what is this? You're following up on what? Like, what is the point of this email? So I need something like, "Following up on next week's episode—need approval on something." Like, give me what this is about in the subject line.

Leah: Oh, in the subject. I thought you were saying in the email people were just writing "following up" with, like, no context whatsoever.

Nick: Well, if you're just saying "following up" and you're forwarding an older email, then that's passive aggressive, because that's basically saying, like, "I didn't get a response. Following up."

Leah: I don't think I've ever just written "following up" in my whole life.

Nick: Oh, I have definitely sent emails—and I'm not proud of it, but I've sent them where it's just "see below."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Oh, I hear—I hear you saying that.

Nick: See below. Yeah, so I have sent more than my fair share of those. Probably not polite but, you know, sometimes you just hit your breaking point. I'm human.

Leah: Well, at least it's direct. And I know I gotta see below.

Nick: It's direct. Yeah. The thing you need, it's below. So just see it.

Leah: [laughs] And please act accordingly.

Nick: But next thing on my list is I do like a nice introduction. So either just your name, comma, hello, comma. Just give me a something. It is interesting, the higher up somebody moves in an organization or the more power they perceive they have, the briefer their emails get, where you get, like, one sentence emails. And then if you really think you're, like, fancy, then punctuation and capitalization goes out the window. That's when you get emails which are like, "Do it. TY."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Okay. So I don't love that. I think no matter who you are, what job you hold, I think it is nice to use, like, full sentences and sort of be nice about it. So I would like a nice introduction, body, closing.

Leah: I was gonna say higher up or you're just emailing with comics.

Nick: Or that. Sure.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Now I think for our letter-writer's example of, like, oh, I forgot the attachment. This happens. Not a big deal. And yeah, all you have to do is be like, "Oh, forgot to attach it. Please see attached."

Leah: I've done it many times.

Nick: And for that, I wouldn't necessarily need a "Dear everybody again." Like, I would be comfortable with one sentence. And I think I would sign my name "- N." Just like a little, like, "Oh, here's a little memo."

Leah: Sometimes I write—but people, it would be somebody who knows my voice, because I have often forgotten attachments. I say "Forgot attachment. Mortifying!"

Nick: "Mortifying" is definitely a great word that you use. Yes.

Leah: And then I put—I put "-LDB."

Nick: Nice. Yeah, I like that. That's your signature.

Leah: I think that what—something Nick said was really important, and that is not a big deal. Just send it again. Add the attachment.

Nick: Oh, yeah. Now what is a big deal is the "reply all" when you shouldn't be doing that.

Leah: Oh, yes.

Nick: And so definitely be mindful of the reply all, because that gets into trouble.

Leah: Oh, and I've been on email threads where somebody replies all with, like, something that is clearly—I mean, why are you replying all? And then somebody will come back at them in the reply all, and then we're off to the races.

Nick: Right. And then it's like, "Oh, stop replying all, everybody." But I just sent that reply all.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And then somebody else was like, "No, really. Stop sending reply all, everybody." And it just goes on forever. I think there was one at NYU a year or two ago that, like, lasted for 36 hours until the IT department could, like, figure out how to, like, cut off the message board that was causing it.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: Yeah. So just be mindful of the reply all, and the reply all apocalypse. I'm sure there's some term for it. Email storm.

Leah: Well, I like both. I like "email storm," but I really like the "reply all apocalypse." I think that's really good.

Nick: Yeah. No, they are horrible. Yes. So don't do that.

Leah: I don't know if I would put this in the refresher or, like, an intro, but I do think that if you're, like, sort of—I think sometimes you want to follow up with somebody.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: Or maybe they made a mistake, or they didn't send you something they were supposed to. And I think it's nice to just email directly with them, but if you are CCing other people ...

Nick: Uh-oh.

Leah: ... I think be aware that that sends the vibe that you are telling on them.

Nick: Yeah. If you—like, if you loop in somebody's boss on an email? Yeah, that sends a signal.

Leah: So maybe you're sending that signal on purpose, because they have—do they just keep not doing it, and you're trying to get help in some way, but know that that is the signal you are sending.

Nick: Yes. Yes. When you loop other people into an email thread, yes, you are sending a signal. And like with all etiquette, it's like poetry. You can certainly do whatever you want as long as you know the rules and you're just making a conscious decision. But yeah, it's provocative.

Leah: It's provocative.

Nick: Yeah. Although I've done it. Absolutely I've done it.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Although sometimes what I do is I'll BCC the boss. So it's sort of like you don't know I've looped in your boss but, like, they're gonna see this email.

Leah: Well, sometimes you don't want something put on you. You want the proof that it has been—you've done your side.

Nick: Yes. Yeah. No, if you've got receipts, sometimes you gotta show the receipts.

Leah: I think I told you this story, but my actual last office job, the woman I worked for publicly blamed me for something.

Nick: Yes. Yes! And how'd that go?

Leah: So I CCed everybody on the email showing that I had done it.

Nick: She started it.

Leah: She started it. And then she came out of her office and yelled in my face, like, within a half an inch.

Nick: Nice. Lovely. That sounds fun.

Leah: It was ...

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And I thought, you know, I don't think office life is for me.

Nick: Yeah. All right. Well, that was a good learning experience for you. You really learned something about yourself.

Leah: I did. Even I have limits.

Nick: Yeah. Even Leah Bonnema has limits.

Leah: And I didn't—I think she thought I was gonna apologize, or ...

Nick: You will not apologize if you were clearly correct.

Leah: Right? I wasn't—I was like, I'm not wrong.

Nick: I have nothing to apologize for.

Leah: You threw me under the bus.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: And I'll actually be thrown under the bus if you come to me and you go, "Hey, I gotta throw somebody on the bus." And I'll go, "Fine."

Nick: But not for this.

Leah: Not for this I'm not gonna be thrown under the bus.

Nick: Not if you're publicly shamed.

Leah: Not publicly shamed. Everybody's getting CCed.

Nick: So the last thing on my list of things not to do is do not send a "you're welcome" email.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I cannot tell you how maddening it is when I receive an email where I'm like, "thank you" for whatever it is that they did for me or I needed or whatever. And I'll send a thank you email. "Thanks. Got it." Do not write back, "you're welcome."

Leah: I knew this was on your list. I knew this was the closer on your list.

Nick: But am I alone? Who wants a "you're welcome" email?

Leah: I don't have feelings about it, but when I do get them, I immediately think Nick would be so mad.

Nick: [laughs] I cannot be alone here. I cannot be alone on this. It is maddening, because it's a waste of time, it's a waste of bandwidth. It's not necessary in this format. Let's—let's just end it. Why are we creating more email?

Leah: [laughs] It's more trees! More trees are getting cut down!

Nick: Yes! I mean, it's just I get enough email, and so anything we can do to minimize email is welcome. And sending out "your welcome" emails? Ahh!

Leah: Never even thought about it until you first voiced your distaste.

Nick: Distaste? Oh, that's a very mild way to put it.

Leah: No, I was trying to be gentle. And so I don't know how often it was happening previous to that.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Now I notice when it happens.

Nick: And it happens more often than it should.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And it must stop. So if you take one thing from this conversation, trucker-turned-local-news-ad-salesperson, do not send "you're welcome" emails.

Leah: And I would say moving you to the BCC.

Nick: Moving you to the BCC. Yeah, that's a good one, too. So hope this was a helpful intro.

Leah: I hope it was helpful, too. I was so excited about this one.

Nick: Yeah. I feel like in the next life you're gonna be a trucker.

Leah: I mean, who knows, maybe in this life.

Nick: True.

Leah: I've always wanted to be able to drive an 18 wheeler. I think it's like one of those skill sets that you should have.

Nick: Yeah, I think it's pretty challenging. I mean, just like, how do you park?

Leah: No, I'm—I'm sure it's more than challenging. There's challenging and then there's the next thing. I've—have you watched some people back up these trucks?

Nick: No. It's incredible. Also, just, like, to drive that fast, knowing how long it will take you to stop if you needed to?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Like, that's wild.

Leah: It's wild. And it's wild when you see cars pull right in front of a truck, going slow, and you're like, "Are you out—do you get how hard they have to break?"

Nick: Yeah. Or just like riding in a truck's blind spot?

Leah: Mmm!

Nick: Mmm! But just think of all the Buc-ee's bathrooms you could visit if you were a trucker.

Leah: Well, that is what I think about.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, what a life.

Leah: I also think how many audiobooks.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, gosh, you're gonna run out of—what is the new genre you're into? Monster romance?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Uh-huh. Put a pin in that, listeners. She's into monster romance now.

Leah: Hey, you know, I just want to support creatives.

Nick: And you are.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: Oh, Leah! That was a howl!

Leah: Oh, thank you. I've been spending more time in the woods.

Nick: That's true. Leah is currently in Maine today. So I feel like it is soaking in.

Leah: I've been out there howling.

Nick: So our first question is quote, "I have a friend who now works for a company that I previously worked for. My friend frequently texts me to tell me that she said hi to—insert name of colleague here—for me. I didn't ask her to say hello to anyone for me. It's not the most egregious crime, of course, but I still find it irritating that she spreads messages on my behalf. I didn't have a great experience at that company, and I've moved on in my career to a place where I feel more appreciated. My friend knows this. I don't want my former colleagues to wonder if I'm pining for them now. I'm not. Even if the message is innocuous, isn't it rude to speak for someone else?"

Leah: Yeah, I don't like this at all.

Nick: Yeah, this rubs me the wrong way.

Leah: Especially since you didn't have a great experience there.

Nick: Yes, that makes a difference. If you were neutral or you liked it there then, like, okay, fine.

Leah: And your friend knows this.

Nick: Yeah. They know you didn't have a good time. So then I'm wondering, like, what is your friend doing?

Leah: Why are they doing it?

Nick: Like, what is that about? Like, what's the game they're playing?

Leah: And I think we can just straight out say—for me, it would be easier to say it in person because sometimes I think that in a text would come out pretty direct. But in person we could be like, "Hey, if you could stop telling people I said hi, you know, I didn't have the best experience there and I just—it's uncomfortable for me. Thank you so much."

Nick: Okay. Oh, that's nice. I like how that was phrased. Yeah. No, that felt perfect. Yeah. Non judgmental. It was direct, it was polite. Wasn't accusatory. It was about the future. Yeah, I like that.

Leah: I'm just gonna assume that they were doing it out of friendliness, and if they could just please stop because it's uncomfortable for me.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think this is not being done maliciously. It's just a "Oh, I'm friends with this person you used to work with. She says hi."

Leah: Yeah. And they're just not thinking about the full picture.

Nick: Now. How would we feel if we're sending regards? So, "Oh, Leah didn't say hi. She sends her regards." Would that feel better?

Leah: I don't want you sending anything.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, maybe don't send anything. A term that hit my radar—and I don't know where this came from, but I love it—it's "social ventriloquism."

Leah: Ooh!

Nick: Where you're basically, like, speaking through or for someone. So, like, if you were at dinner, it'd be like, "Oh, Leah will have the pasta." And it's like, nobody asked Leah what she wanted. I'm just, like, deciding for you.

Leah: Oh, that's a great term.

Nick: And so I like this idea of social ventriloquism, right?

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Yeah. I wonder who invented that. I did.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: If you can't find any other sources, I invented it. But yeah, and I think that's rude because you are presuming you know better. You're substituting your judgment for somebody else's, and that always is rude.

Leah: I think it's possible this person is doing it because they want to make friends, or—so they're trying to, like, use this person as, like, a diving board from which to jump off of into their own relationship.

Nick: Yeah. I think it is to try to develop a little rapport with the new colleagues. Right.

Leah: But they can still not do it.

Nick: Also, if that's the case, then that could backfire, because you don't know the relationship that your friend had with her colleagues. Like, our letter-writer doesn't love her old workplace. But who's to say that the workplace didn't like her either? And so by saying, like, "Oh, I'm good friends with this person that you don't like," well, then that might taint our relationship, even though it's totally independent.

Leah: How funny would it be if you said to me, "Hey, I said hi to Lisa for you," and I was like, "Oh, Lisa. Did she tell you that I peed on her desk before I left?"

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And so when you're saying "Leah says hi," it just seems like a threat.

Nick: That would come across in a very different way. Yeah. Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah, so I think that is dangerous. I think that is dangerous. I love that we went to desk. I mean, at least give me, like, coffee pot. Like, we're just going right on the desk here?

Leah: No, I just was thinking of, like, the most egregious way a person could walk out of an office. And I feel like if it's that you walked on someone's desk and peed on it.

Nick: Yeah. No, that's top 10. Sure. So yes, I think you are allowed to be annoyed by this.

Leah: Top 10?

Nick: Peeing on somebody's desk?

Leah: Top five, top three.

Nick: Oh, I—I could think of a lot of other ways to exit an office dramatically beyond that. Oh, come now. Where's your creativity?

Leah: Well then, I want to hear the other nine, Nick.

Nick: Oh, I can't do it on air.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Absolutely not. That is NSFW.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So our next question is quote, "What is the expectation of buying gifts when you travel? Are we supposed to be buying gifts for family and friends and coworkers every time we travel somewhere? You see this in TV shows, and I recently went on a trip with my sister and she made sure to get a gift for her husband, kids and our parents. We ended up going together to get the gifts for our parents, and I did purchase a few things for friends. But I bought these gifts because I knew they would love these items and not simply because I was on a trip. Does it make a difference how soon you'll see a person post trip? For example, I usually buy my dogsitter a little gift when I'm on a trip because I know I will see them right when I get back. But I live across the country from my parents and I probably won't see them for a few months, so I don't usually feel compelled to get them a gift. Also, work travel versus personal travel? I have a multi-country trip coming up, and I would love to hear your input before I leave and potentially commit an etiquette crime."

Leah: I don't think we're obligated to buy gifts for anybody.

Nick: We are not. No.

Leah: I think the idea that you buy a little gift for your dogsitter because they were, you know, taking care of your dog while you're gone and you come home and you're like, "Here's a little something extra to say thank you. I thought of you when I was in Kentucky." That's lovely.

Nick: Yes. And I think that would be a reason to get something in your travels: if there's somebody who's doing something for you, a colleague that's covering you, a dog walker that's taking care of your dog, a neighbor that is picking up the newspaper off your porch.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Is that even a thing that still happens? I don't know. Do they print newspapers? Who can say?

Leah: Yes!

Nick: But yes, I think those are all kind gestures. But yeah, the idea that you're obligated? No, you're not.

Leah: I had never had anybody pick something up for me when they were traveling. That wasn't, like, a life I was familiar with at all. And then Dustin does it.

Nick: Yes. And I have a friend that does this. And I actually asked the question, like, "Oh, what is this about? Like, tell me more about this tradition that you have." And the way it was explained, at least in his family, is that his parents and some of his relatives don't have the opportunity to travel the way he does. They just can't do it. And so this is his way to sort of bring them into his world, share some of these experiences with them, make them feel a part of the trip in some small way. And so that's what this is about for him. And so I think that's totally lovely.

Leah: I think it's lovely. And now I always get dust in something because I enjoy it so much. And then I usually—like, if I go to, like, a big event, you know, and it's like a cool event, I try to get something for my parents from those events. But I in no way feel obligated.

Nick: No. But I think it's nice if you see something that's perfect for somebody you know and you happen to be traveling. Like, have at it. Like, I think I was in Copenhagen and I saw this, like, zip bag in a store that said, like, "Oh, all my chaos goes inside this bag." And so I thought of you, and so I bought it for you.

Leah: I mean, that is so me. And it's perfect for me and I love it.

Nick: Yeah. And I'm sure you put all of your chaos in it.

Leah: All of my chaos doesn't fit in that bag, Nick. But I put in as much chaos as I can.

Nick: Okay. Well, I'm gonna be back in Copenhagen soon, so I'll see if I can get you another one.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: But yeah, I think for your multi-country trip, I think you do not have to do gifts if you don't want. But if there is anybody back at home who's, like, taking care of things for you, it would be a nice gesture to think of them in your travels, but don't stress out.

Leah: Yeah, don't stress out.

Nick: So our next question is quote, "Is it okay to lie and say you've eaten at a restaurant before to avoid having the concept explained?"

Leah: I just don't like the idea of lying.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I don't want to lie, but this is maddening.

Leah: I think you could say, "Yes, I understand the concept."

Nick: Well, here's the thing. No matter how you answer the question, they're still gonna explain the concept. In my experience, they either say, "Welcome in," or "Welcome back," and then they'll be like, "Okay, well, here's how it works." Or they'll say, "Oh, so as you know, here's how it works." And so you get the same speech either way.

Leah: I think it doesn't take that long. It feels like it's taking forever.

Nick: I mean, sometimes it takes a really long time.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] And it's always before you have a drink or before—like, it's always like, "Oh, I'm hungry. Like, can we—can we do this at some other point? This is not good timing for me."

Leah: I mean, I wonder if there's a way to say that, because, you know, as somebody who was a waiter for a long time, they have to say it.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: I wonder if you could say, "I know you probably have to explain it to me, but I would love to get a beverage first. I'm parched."

Nick: I'm parched. Okay. Okay, I mean, it's something in that world. I think, using the word "parched," that—that definitely reads as a little aggressive.

Leah: How about if I have just walked through a desert and my throat is without moisture?

Nick: Ah, the aridus!

Leah: Just a lot of poetic visuals.

Nick: Okay. I mean, do that if that works for you.

Leah: I mean, I'm saying if you must not listen.

Nick: Sure. But yeah, I think you just tough it out, and then hopefully it is brief. But yeah, to lie? I don't think we should ever lie. I think that's never really gonna be an etiquette answer.

Leah: Because it's a slippery slope.

Nick: It is a slippery slope. And then you'll get caught. I guess what if you said, like, "Oh, we haven't been here before, but we studied up before we came, so we're ready to order."

Leah: I love that one.

Nick: Right?

Leah: I love—I was trying to get there with "I understand the concept," but the way you said it, glorious.

Nick: And just it's a separate pet peeve, but just these restaurants that have concepts that are actually just how dining happens? Do not explain this to me. Do not explain this is an appetizer. This is a larger dish called a "main dish." Maybe it's called an "entr—e." It's a little bigger than the appetizers. And then we have things at the end that are sweeter. Those are "desserts." Like, do not walk me through that.

Leah: Are people walking people through that?

Nick: I cannot tell you how many restaurants I've been to where they, quote-unquote, "explain the concept," and it was a standard three course meal in that order, no surprises.

Leah: This is unrelated, but it is related emotionally.

Nick: Okay. [laughs]

Leah: And because we talked about office email earlier. I remember at one of my temp jobs, I started out filing. And this lady came over and she explained filing.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: She goes, "So months are numbered, and January is one and February is two. So if you get something for February ..." And I was like, "Is this really happening?"

Nick: Wow! Okay. Well, I mean, you will never forget what numbers are associated with months now.

Leah: [laughs] Imagine that's when I ...

Nick: That's training.

Leah: Wow! Wow! Did this just happen?

Nick: So you were overqualified is what you're saying?

Leah: I got offered the job, I'll tell you that. They were like, "Would you like to be permanent?" And I was like, "No. No."

Nick: Yeah. Thank you so much. So you out there, is there something you need explained in excruciating detail? Let us know! We're happy to help. You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Nick, I gotta repent.

Nick: Okay. What has happened?

Leah: Okay, this is a little snow etiquette.

Nick: Oh, okay. Snetiquette? [laughs]

Leah: [laughs] I just—I mean, it's a Maine snow etiquette, but I'm gonna assume it's anywhere there's snow.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Hit me up, other snow peoples.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So when it snows and you are taking your car out, you get the snow off your car.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And it's not just so you can see out of your car, it's so that the snow on your car doesn't blow back on the cars driving behind you.

Nick: Ah! Okay, now that you say that, that makes sense.

Leah: Right? So when people, like, leave that whole pile of snow on top of their car?

Nick: Right.

Leah: And then you have to drive behind them? You're just getting whacked with their ...

Nick: Oh, yeah. It's blowing in dust or it's, like, chunks. Right. Oh, yeah!

Leah: So it's polite to ...

Nick: Take that off.

Leah: ... get yourself a broom, and just push it off over the top.

Nick: And you should also get, like, the back trunk, too.

Leah: If you have a trunk that sticks out.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So any snow that might blow on other cars behind you you should take care of.

Leah: Should come off.

Nick: Oh, yes. That's very good advice. So are you having a problem with this?

Leah: So no, I normally do it.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So the other day, it was a dusting. We're not talking inches. We're talking dusting.

Nick: Dust. Just something a Swiffer could take care of.

Leah: So I didn't—I didn't get the broom out. I didn't get the scraper. I got in the car, I warmed up. I put on the windshield wipers.

Nick: Away we go.

Leah: Away we go. As I'm driving down the street, I realized that dusting was a little heavy on top of the car. And I noticed because the truck behind me dropped back.

Nick: Ah.

Leah: Because it was flying off my roof.

Nick: Wow.

Leah: And then that truck pulled off, and then the person pulled up, and then they dropped back because it was still coming off. And I was like ...

Nick: That was quite a dusting.

Leah: I was like, "A little more than a dusting, Leah. You should have handled your business."

Nick: I mean, I guess what's good is that you have California plates, so everybody knows.

Leah: Oh, I don't drive my car here. I'm driving the truck here.

Nick: Oh, okay. Oh, those are local plates then. Oh, so people are like, "Oh, this person should know better."

Leah: They're like, "They should know better."

Nick: [laughs] You know, like, oh, if you're driving your California car, they'd be like, "Ah, Californians"

Leah: I know. Anytime you say that or anytime someone says those words "know better," I immediately think of—as everybody does—Lord of the Rings when they go, "A wizard should know better!" And that's what I think when I do something rude like that or stupid. Like, I know better. I just—it seemed like less snow, but then it's hitting everybody behind me, and I think a wizard should know better!

Nick: I guess your eye for snow has really deteriorated since you've left.

Leah: You know what, Nick? It has. You know what was really embarrassing is that I was drive—this—I mean, mortifying. As a Mainer?

Nick: Mmm?

Leah: Mortifying. Driving across, I hit three snowstorms. I wake up, snowed more overnight. I go to warm up the car. I realize I don't have a scraper in my car.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: I don't own a scraper.

Nick: Wow!

Leah: I'm driving across America in the winter. I had to go to the hotel desk and say, "May I borrow a scraper?"

Nick: Wow!

Leah: I just felt like, who are you?

Nick: Who have you become?

Leah: Who have you become?

Nick: Wow!

Leah: Unprepared.

Nick: Disgusting.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Well for me, I would also like to repent.

Leah: *[gasps] What?

Nick: I know! It's a real one. Well, because I was looking at our stats, and we're coming up on, like, episode 300 soon, when we're probably gonna do a little, like, stat crunching. And so I feel like I need to at least have one in there. But this is a real one. It's not one of those fake ones. So in some past episode, or just throughout my life, I have maintained that I don't like when people use return address stickers on their cards. I don't love that. I don't like the look of it. I think it's a little lazy, maybe. Like, I don't know. It's just I would rather you hand write it if it's not engraved.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so I have long sort of maintained this. But for whatever reason, this year, all y'all really stepped up your holiday card games. And our PO box was overfloweth, and got lovely holiday cards from a lot of people, which really just warmed my little heart. And I write back everyone. So if you sent me a card and you did not hear back from me, it means I couldn't read your return address. And I realized that I really loved having these printed, legible, clear return addresses on these envelopes. It was just so lovely and convenient for me when I need to write you back, because if you've never written to me before, I don't have your address. I have to use the address on the envelope. And so I did manage to, like, figure out everybody's handwriting. Like, I would Google you and, like, see where you lived and, like, see your house and see your address and match up the name and be like, "Okay, that's the right house. That's the right address." But it was a lot easier to have the pre-printed thing. And if the idea of etiquette is to show consideration to others, that actually is the move. So I would like to repent for my previous position on this. I am changed.

Leah: Welcome.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, I'm on board. I get it now. I get it. I get it.

Leah: I'm not gonna say anything else because I think we should end on "I get it."

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: "I get it now."

Nick: Okay. Just "I get it." End it there.

Leah: He gets it.

Nick: I get it.

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Can I say two things?

Nick: I mean, break the rules.

Leah: I mean, that's so me.

Nick: Yeah. All right, what have you learned?

Leah: Well, I learned that if I step on someone's foot in Mongolia, I'm gonna shake their hand.

Nick: You sure are.

Leah: Immediately.

Nick: Yep.

Leah: I'm gonna put my hand right out.

Nick: Get it out there.

Leah: And I learned the term "social ventriloquism."

Nick: Isn't that lovely?

Leah: Yeah, it's really ...

Nick: I mean, the actual thing is not lovely, but the term is cool.

Leah: The term is very descriptive of what's happening.

Nick: And I learned that among the long list of things you want to be when you grow up, trucker. You want to be a trucker.

Leah: Yeah, it's on the list.

Nick: I mean, why not?

Leah: What a skill set.

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, I want you to try to stump us. Give us your hardest, most complicated, nuanced question. See if you can get us to not know how to answer. Stump us.

Leah: Oh, I love that!

Nick: I want to be stumped. Yeah. Is there such a question or scenario that is just so beyond, we're at a loss for words?

Leah: I can't imagine. I feel like you would do research and find something similar.

Nick: I mean, I would always do my best to come up with something, but ...

Leah: And I would be like, "Hey, this gives me a lot of anxiety, and I had to eat multiple Tums. But if I have to say something ...?"

Nick: Right. So try. We would love to hear what you can come up with. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: Well, as we begin a new season, I would just like to send a cordials of kindness out to all of our amazing listeners, our Wolves family, who have just—I mean, we're almost at 300 episodes.

Nick: Crazy!

Leah: And obviously, we couldn't do this without you. And you send us the most beautiful messages, and we love you so much.

Nick: And for me, along those lines, I want to say thank you to everybody that sent holiday cards to us this year. It was such a treat to open the PO box every day and just get all these lovely messages from around the world. And it really just, like, warmed my heart. So thank you and look forward to next year.

Leah: So lovely.