Adding "Carriages" to Invitations, Making Animal Sounds at Dinner, Alleging Underbaked Brownies, and More

Nick: Do you overstay your welcome? Do you forget your training? Do you criticize people's style? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So, for today's amuse bouche, I want to talk about something that is very unlikely to come up in your life, but if it does, I want you to be prepared.

Leah: Oh! Oh!

Nick: [laughs] Exactly. That's the response I'm looking for. So Leah, I actually found the perfect tie-in to you specifically. So you have been invited to a party by JRR Tolkien.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: Right? You would go to that party.

Leah: Of course I would.

Nick: And he has sent you an invitation, and at the bottom of this invitation it says "carriages at midnight."

Leah: Okay?

Nick: And so the question, Leah, is what does that mean?

Leah: I would assume that it means that the carriage should come back to pick me up at midnight?

Nick: Exactly. Yes. That is a very, very polite way of saying, "Get out of here, party's over. Don't have to go home, but can't stay here." Yes. That is the time when the party is done, and you should be fetched by your carriage.

Leah: I love that. Carriages at midnight. For me, it would be like carriages at 9:00 pm.

Nick: Well, it could be carriages at whatever time. But this is a very obscure thing that really only pops up in the UK. Very rare in the United States, because I think for parties in the United States, we often don't put an end time. Right?

Leah: Yeah, we seemingly don't, unless it's like a 2:00-4:00 bridal shower.

Nick: Oh, exactly. Yes, if it's a daytime or it's casual or it's, like, something other than evening, but if it's like evening formal, we never say when it ends. And I really feel like maybe we should. Maybe that would be a nice thing to actually put on invitations. But in the UK, in very, very fancy formal events—balls, galas, you know, things where you're wearing tiaras—you might see the term "carriages" on an invitation. And it does trip a lot of people up the first time they see it, because it's like, what exactly does that mean? And it does not mean that they are providing carriages for you.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: It's BYOC. You have to bring your own carriage.

Leah: I love it. I love it!

Nick: And some people find it, like, a little pretentious or outdated. But I also love it. I actually feel like we should do more of this. I feel like it would be super charming to, like, put "carriages" on an invitation, even for informal things.

Leah: Absolutely. I want to throw this on everything.

Nick: Right? I mean, Debrett's, which is sort of like the British Emily Post, like, they're kind of like arbiters of British etiquette. They say you do not do it for informal events. Like, it's not done. Don't use grandiose language. But I think it's fun. I mean, I think if you know the rule, you know that this is really meant for grandiose events, but you're doing it in sort of a cheeky way, if you're having a garden party and you want to be like, "Carriages at 2:00," have at it.

Leah: I love that. So cheeky. Because obviously, you know it's not a gala.

Nick: Right. Yes. I mean, you should know. Yes. Yeah, it's not a gala. Also, you should also know that I don't have a carriage.

Leah: [laughs] I would love it if somebody showed up with a wagon.

Nick: I mean, that would really be like, "Oh, your invitations said carriages. So obviously."

Leah: I brought my wagon.

Nick: But this invitation from Tolkien, there actually is apparently a real invitation in which he used this, but he also said a few other things. And I've just sent it to you via text, Leah. So look at your phone. And for our listeners, tell them what you see on this charming invitation from JRR Tolkien from 1945.

Leah: "Carriages at mid—" [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: "Carriages at midnight, ambulances at 2:00 am."

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: "Wheelbarrows at 5:00 am."

Nick: Yep.

Leah: "Hearses at daybreak."

Nick: What a party.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So what he has done is he's taken the carriages at midnight tradition, and then in very Tolkien fashion, he's just, like, dialed it up a notch.

Leah: Oh, that's so fantastic!

Nick: Isn't that lovely? Yes.

Leah: Oh, that's really fun.

Nick: So next time you're having a party, put "carriages" on the invitation and let people know when you want them out of your house.

Leah: I'm absolutely going to. Thank you for opening my world.

Nick: [laughs] My pleasure.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and into the unknown.

Nick: Oh! Into the abyss.

Leah: Are we the Enterprise?

Nick: Wow. Are we gonna boldly go?

Leah: We are going to boldly go.

Nick: Oh, let's flip that infinitive. So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about what to do when you don't know the etiquette answer.

Leah: When you're out in uncharted etiquette waters.

Nick: Right. When you're in the part of the map that just has mermaids and sea serpents.

Leah: which we haven't discussed yet. And maybe we should.

Nick: Right, yes.

Leah: So this is like a what's in your toolbox for completely unknowns.

Nick: Right. And I think this is handy because on our show, we cannot possibly cover every permutation of every etiquette scenario. And what we do try to do is talk about the bigger principles behind everything we talk about. And we do hopefully walk through, like, our reasoning for why we think what we think.

Leah: Yeah. And they often come down to some of the same basic principles.

Nick: Yes. There are some fundamental elements of etiquette. There are the fermions and bosons, the fundamental particles. And I think knowing what those are, that will help figure out what you're supposed to do in every situation.

Leah: I just wrote down three things.

Nick: Okay. Well, give me number one.

Leah: Can you google it?

Nick: Oh! Okay, yes. Is it googleable?

Leah: Is there a place where you can pull out your phone and look it up real quick?

Nick: Yes. Although that is dangerous. As an etiquette enthusiast who is often on the internet looking things up, I do often find things on the interweb which are not correct. So ...

Leah: It has to be one of those things where it's a forum, and other people can weigh in on other people's answers. Can you read a full Reddit? A full Reddit form in the amount of time?

Nick: Okay, fair enough. I mean, this would be like, "Do I tip housekeeping in a hotel in London?" Like, that would be a question you could, like, google.

Leah: You could google.

Nick: Right. Okay, yeah.

Leah: And then I would take the best two out of three answers.

Nick: Yeah, I think we don't want to necessarily take the first answer.

Leah: Yeah, I think we need to have some sort of consensus. Okay. Yeah.

Leah: And then my second one, which actually should be the first one. These are not in order, but first is we're gonna be polite.

Nick: Oh, sure. Yes.

Leah: That's assumed, but I thought I should write it down.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And then the third one is I think you could just say to somebody, "This is new to me. What is the best way to do this?"

Nick: Yes, that's on my list, especially when dining. If I'm ever dining and I'm encountering a food or a dish and I don't know how to eat it properly, I will absolutely ask. I'll ask my host, I'll ask the server. It's like, "Oh, how should this be eaten?" Because, like, there's tons of foods I don't necessarily know how to eat. Or I could eat it the knife and fork way. That feels right, you know? But not every cuisine uses knives and forks. And so, like, if I wanted to eat it in the traditional manner, like, what is that? I don't necessarily know. So yeah, asking. I think asking is totally allowed.

Leah: Those are my three.

Nick: Okay. I mean, for me, I was thinking about the base is the idea that other people exist. And so I think when we're thinking about, like, oh, what is my response here? The first thing to think about is other people exist, so what will be the most mindful thing for other people in this scene?

Leah: I love that.

Nick: And so we want to be mindful of their property, their space, their feelings and their time. So is the next move something that will be the most respectful of one of those elements? And often that's the right answer, and so go with that.

Leah: I love that.

Nick: And then the other thing I always think about is, like, what will save face here? What will be the least embarrassing to me or to the people around me? So, like, what is gonna be the slickest, most subtle, what's the thing that won't make waves? And so often that's a really good way to make a decision about what to do.

Leah: But I think with that, I think a lot of people get embarrassed saying they don't know something. You should not be embarrassed to say that something is new to you or you're unfamiliar.

Nick: Yes. Oh, you definitely shouldn't be embarrassed about that. Right. But you definitely don't want to embarrass other people with your move. And so you want to think about, like, oh, should I tell this person that they have a run in their stocking?

Leah: Oh, in this kind of circumstance. I got you.

Nick: And so is that helpful? Is that not helpful? Will that embarrass them, or will they be happy to know? And so, you know, that would be one way to think about, like, oh, what's my move here?

Leah: I see what you mean now.

Nick: And then sincerity. You want to make a good effort to try to be polite. We all do. And people sense that.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And even if you fall short, you tried, and people will give you credit for that. So then just apologize. Be like, "Oh, so sorry. I didn't realize. I didn't mean to," whatever it was. But as long as you tried not to be rude, like, then you're pretty much good if you apologize sincerely.

Leah: Yes. Sincerity. Love it.

Nick: And then I often think about, like, oh, if the roles were reversed here, what would I want to have happen?

Leah: Perfect.

Nick: Right? So it's a little, like, golden rule-y.

Leah: Although often what I want is, like, not what people want.

Nick: [laughs] That's true. Yeah, I don't want you necessarily using that logic on mem because then I would end up with an animal sanctuary full of puppies.

Leah: Well, definitely, yes. And then also people always go, "Wouldn't you want to know?" And I always go, "No!"

Nick: No.

Leah: I literally don't want to know anything.

Nick: Yeah. No, actually, don't disclose. Yes.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Don't tell me. And then I think the last idea I had on my list was, like, what would Nick and Leah do?

Leah: Oh, hello!

Nick: Right? You know, I mean, if you've listened to us long enough, hundreds of hours, you probably have a good sense of, like, what we might think about something. Right?

Leah: I just—when you said hundreds of hours, it sort of just hit me that if somebody has listened to everything, they have listened to us for hundreds of hours.

Nick: Hundreds of hours, yes. I mean, we have gotten letters from people where like, "I hear your voice in my head all the time."

Leah: I mean, it's such a honor.

Nick: To which I say, "You're welcome!" [laughs]

Leah: I love how Nick says "You're welcome."

Nick: Or, "I'm sorry." [laughs]

Leah: Yeah, depending.

Nick: So, yeah. Sorry, not sorry.

Leah: I'm honored.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends, like, what am I saying in your head? Like, what is—what is that voice of me saying? Is it nice? Hopefully.

Leah: When I hear your voice.

Nick: Yeah. Sorry again. [laughs] Although that's usually just me saying, like, "Get it together, Leah."

Leah: Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's always "Just send the email."

Nick: Just send the email.

Leah: Just move on.

Nick: Just get over it.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So, yeah. WWNLD, right?

Leah: What would Nick, Leah do?

Nick: WWN&LD? We'll get some bracelets. But yeah, I think if we just remember the baseline, which is like, other people exist, what is the most mindful of that reality?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: And then I think all answers flow from there.

Leah: I think so, too. That's what I was trying to encompass with "be polite," but you said it so much better.

Nick: Okay. Well, be polite. I mean, that's what it is, too. Yeah. I mean, be polite and do your best.

Leah: And I really like the sincerity.

Nick: Yeah, sincerity is key.

Leah: I mean, that's sort of my go to, but often people are like, "Okay, don't be so sincere." [laughs]

Nick: Well, I think because sincerity can come off as suspicious, especially in the big cities. You know, if somebody's super sincere in New York City, you might be like, "What is he really after?"

Leah: Actually, I was trying to—obviously somebody got their stuff stolen from the front of their building. Did I tell you this story?

Nick: Oh, I don't know. In, like, a package?

Leah: Yeah. And it—I found it.

Nick: Oh.

Leah: And it looked like it was important. It looked like legal documents.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And it looked like somebody had stolen mail and then thrown it. And I called the person.

Nick: Oh, that was nice.

Leah: And they absolutely did not trust me, which I understand why. But I think they thought I was gonna, like, hold it for ransom, or I wanted—and I was like, "No, I just—how do you want me to give it to you?"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, how nice! Yeah. But I could see why somebody was suspicious. It's like, why is this person just, like, being nice?

Leah: I know. It was very—they were like—they were like, "How did you get it?" And I was like, "No, it was literally just thrown all over Hollywood Boulevard. And I picked it up because it looks important."

Nick: All right. Well, good deed.

Leah: They didn't want anything to do with me, but that's really, absolutely fine. I go, "Okay."

Nick: All right. Well, no good deed goes unpunished.

Leah: But I mean, I felt I tried my best.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: I didn't know how to handle that.

Nick: Right.

Leah: I was the most sincere I could be.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: Boom!

Nick: Yes. And if they wanted to feel weird about it or make you feel bad for some reason about doing a nice thing, no, you're totally in the etiquette clear, obviously.

Leah: So there's a perfect in-life example.

Nick: Yeah. So I think everybody should have an etiquette toolbox. And as we go through life, we just keep adding some tools to it. So ...

Leah: I love the idea that you pull it out and it's like, kindness.

Nick: Is this you pulling tools out of your toolbox?

Leah: Yeah, these are my tools.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Google.

Nick: Okay. Yeah, whatever visual helps for you. But yeah, I think we all need that foundation, because yeah, we're all gonna encounter, like, bizarre etiquette scenarios that we can't be prepared for. Because how could you be for everything? But remember your training.

Leah: Remember—because I regularly don't know what's happening, so ...

Nick: Right. Yeah. So if you're like Leah ...

Leah: I keep showing up to places and be like, we haven't seen this before.

Nick: So etiquette toolbox.

Leah: Yes. You know, if we were doing sound effects, we could do the sound of a toolbox clicking shut right here.

Nick: What does that sound like? Like a click?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: How is that satisfying for our audience?

Leah: I don't know. It feels kind of good. Click!

Nick: I mean, what did we say about sound effects? Like, don't get used to it?

Leah: You said you were—you were gonna give me that one episode and that was it.

Nick: Right. I gave you a tennis ball. I mean, I guess the real question is: Has our audience deserved another sound effect?

Leah: Are you serious? Of course they deserve it!

Nick: I mean, I got some cards in the mail, but I didn't get one card for every listener we have.

Leah: Wow!

Nick: So I'm just saying, like ...

Leah: Maybe they're spacing it out collectively. They got together, they made phone calls, they had a group meeting, and they said, "Let's spread it out over the year."

Nick: [laughs] All right. Well, maybe listeners, if you're real good, you'll get some sound effects in a future episode. I'm not gonna give you a toolbox click, though. I'm so sorry.

Leah: Okay. Well, I'm gonna look forward to future episode sound bites.

Nick: And you're gonna go out of your way to, like, talk about things that have sounds now.

Leah: I mean, we'll see what happens.

Nick: Be like, "Oh, this made me think about a rusty gate."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So look forward to that.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "My boyfriend and I have a good friend who is in a rather new but seemingly serious relationship. Recently, the couple asked us to dinner, and we went to a very nice restaurant with a third couple. Our friend is an omnivore, as are the rest of us, but her partner is vegan. Not a problem. The place we dined has options for everyone. The trouble started, though, when the food came. It's common with this group of friends to order and share food family style. Baby lamb chops were ordered as one of the appetizers, and when they were passed to our friend, her partner started commenting about the slaughter of baby lambs. And then when that didn't seem to faze any of us, she started making baby lamb bleating noises loudly and incessantly.

Nick: "Our friend tried to silence her, but things only escalated from there. You can't imagine what happened when the octopus arrived! She quieted down some as the meal progressed, but continued to make animal sounds throughout the meal as various dishes were served. As a note, there were plenty of vegan dishes on the table at all times. We love our friend, but I don't think we can dine with them as a couple again, and none of us knew what to say or how we should have responded. We didn't want to further embarrass our dear friend. Now they want to make dinner a monthly thing. Other than going to only vegan restaurants, which none of us want to do, what are our choices?"

Leah: I want to say Nick was nervous about doing this question.

Nick: I was, because—well, for a lot of reasons. But I think, to preface, this has nothing to do with being vegan. Like, the etiquette here has nothing to do with being vegan or not vegan.

Leah: I also have two very different feelings about this.

Nick: Okay. My first question before we begin though is: the letter writer says "You can't imagine what happened when the octopus arrived." I have no idea.

Leah: [laughs] Me too. That's what—I was so glad, because I was like, I really don't know and I wish somebody would tell us.

Nick: I can't imagine. Because, like, what noises do octopuses make?

Leah: Our letter-writer, please tell us what happened. Because I really was like, was there a lot of arm waving? Because it's sort of—I'm imagining wave—but they make noise, like sucking sounds?

Nick: Sure? Yeah. No, that caught my eye, because I was like, "I don't. I can't imagine."

Leah: But please tell us.

Nick: And I think an important thing to note is I grew up vegan, and so I am very familiar with the vegan diet. I am very familiar with dining with non-vegans. This—this was not great. This was not great. To make animal noises. I mean, come on!

Leah: I'm gonna say both of my thoughts at the same exact time.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I mean, one right after the other so—I don't have two mouths.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: One, our letter writer says, "What are our choices?"

Nick: Right.

Leah: So I'm gonna say I think you're well within your rights to say to your friend, "We really feel unco—it makes us very uncomfortable to be eating out with somebody who makes crying animal noises."

Nick: Yes.

Leah: I think it's totally fair to say. At the same time, let me say ...

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: ... the world needs people making bleeding baby lamb noises. And obviously, this was inappropriate, but at the same time, I'm sort of in love with this person and I think wow, way to go all in. You know, because somebody's gotta speak up against the meat industry. And this person, there is a place for this person—not at our letter-writer's dinner table, but they could be in front of a chicken house stopping people from going in and hurting the chickens. And that's why we need these people.

Nick: Yes. I think there is a very legitimate argument for veganism or more plant-based diets or, you know, what the meat industry does in terms of our environment and supply chain and all that.

Leah: And animals. And so ...

Nick: Oh, and the animals themselves. Sure.

Leah: The cruelty.

Nick: So I think there absolutely—that's a conversation that we can have. This is not the time or place for that.

Leah: Well, it's a whole other step, because it's not just having the conversation, it's making the animal noises. Which is why I almost respect it, because she went to the first level and then she thought, Not far enough."

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: "I'm gonna make the noises so you remember there are living creatures."

Nick: Okay. Yeah. I mean, she wanted to make a point and she did so. So mission accomplished. I think in general, it is not polite to comment on what people are eating or not eating. That's like just a general etiquette baseline. And so obviously this is a comment. And I feel like if this person wasn't comfortable in this sort of situation where we're gonna be having meat at the table, then that feels like something that would come up when we're making the reservation, which is like, "Hey, I'm vegan. I don't enjoy dining out in non-vegan spaces. And so is it possible to dine somewhere vegan? Or can we get together with your friends for cocktails or something else?"

Leah: I think this person is a rebel rouser.

Nick: Yeah. This was intended to be provocative.

Leah: Which I completely understand is inappropriate. I just wanted to say also high five.

Nick: It's bold. I mean, I definitely—I appreciate people that have convictions and are willing to go for it.

Leah: If I was at the table—because of how I deal with any kind of uncomfortability—I would have fallen off my chair laughing. Also, let me say, I will not eat lamb.

Nick: Yes, you do have a no-nipple policy.

Leah: I have a no-nipple policy.

Nick: Yes. Fun fact, everybody. Leah does not eat anything with a nipple.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So chicken, okay.

Leah: Chicken, okay. Fish, okay. Turkey, okay. And I do feel like chicken's probably the next to go, because I've just seen so many videos of them being funny.

Nick: [laughs] Oh, it's a comedy thing for you. Oh, I see.

Leah: And I saw one of one taking a bath. It was like, really sweet. It kind of purred. And I thought, "Uh oh, there goes chicken." But, you know, turkeys are aggressive, so I feel less bad about that.

Nick: Yeah. No, their—their stand up isn't as fun.

Leah: [laughs] They're kind of bullies is what it is.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I've been bullied. My car has been bullied by turkeys. Also, I have to have some poultry. And—but yeah, if you have a nipple, I won't eat you.

Nick: Noted. So in terms of, like, what to do? Your friend, I think, was really kind of responsible for their guest. And so I think you did the right thing, which was sort of just like—just kind of try to ignore it as best you can and not indulge it. Not indulging it, I think, actually made them escalate it further. Like, because you didn't indulge it at first, then that's when the animal noises started.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: I think as another diner, I think once we're doing whatever we're doing with the octopus, I think we could have said something along the lines of, like, "I totally respect your dietary choices. I would hope you would respect ours, and I hope we could just have a pleasant meal." Something in that sort of just non-judgmental, very factual sort of statement just to be like, "Hey, let's not."

Leah: I like that. I also think this person literally doesn't care. Like they're meeting—as you said, they're meeting friends for the first time. They're not in any way trying to be ingratiating or polite.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So that's why I think they belong on the front lines.

Nick: So in terms of what you can do about it in the future, yeah, I don't know if we necessarily need to make a monthly thing of dinner. I think a lot of friendships have certain contexts, and so these are not dinner friends now. These are non-food friends, these are game night friends, these are cocktail friends, these are going to a museum friends. But these are not sit-down meal friends anymore. And that's fine. You can have a relationship with them in other contexts.

Leah: And I think you can straight up tell your friend that. "Hey ..."

Nick: Oh, your friend knows.

Leah: Yeah. But I mean, if they ask you, be like, "Yeah, that's totally it."

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. "Yeah, that's why. Because your partner made bleating noises while I'm having lamb chops. And so I don't want that again."

Leah: "Yeah, I don't want that again. So we'll do something else besides eating."

Nick: "Surely you understand."

Leah: "Surely you—" I don't even think you need that far. They must understand.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, if they don't, then I don't know what we're doing.

Leah: Also, I won't eat foie gras.

Nick: Fair enough.

Leah: No nipples, but you get it.

Nick: So our next question is quote, "We have a friend—let's call her Tanya. Tanya has for the past 10 years provided brownies for funeral luncheons at her church. The word goes out that a church member has passed, and Tanya springs into action with her brownies. Recently, when Tanya got the word that a prominent member of her church had passed, she knew that there needed to be a double batch. When Tanya put her brownies into the oven, she wasn't able to be there to pull them out, so she asked her husband if he would take them out of the oven when they are done. The husband does as he's instructed, and takes them out of the oven, and the pans were brought over as the usual practice is that the brownies are cut on site.

Nick: "The day after the funeral, Tanya gets an email from the food organizer woman with the following message: 'Tanya, I'm writing to tell you that the brownies you baked for the funeral were not done in the middle and could not be served. However, I took them home and finished baking them, and my boys enjoyed your always delicious treats. Thank you. You may pick up your pan at ...' This requires a two-step solution, as the husband is the culprit for not testing the brownies before taking them out of the oven. And apparently, Tanya didn't tell him to check them first. Insert marital solution here. Secondly, how should Tanya deal with the church lady? As of right now, Tanya doesn't trust herself to not respond in a wolf-like way, but also is so offended she doesn't believe the church lady deserves any sort of cordial and polite reply."

Leah: I'm on Tanya's side.

Nick: Okay, go on.

Leah: Well, first let me say there's nothing I like more than a very gooey brownie. So ...

Nick: Yeah, you're a fudgy brownie person.

Leah: I'm a fudgy brownie. I don't think Tanya—has been making brownies for funeral services for her church for 10 years.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, she knows how to do brownies.

Leah: Yes. So let's have a little grace.

Nick: And respect.

Leah: And respect.

Nick: Respect for the brownie lady.

Leah: Also, the husband is not at fault. He followed directions that were given to him. He took it out when he was told to and he brought it over.

Nick: This actually reminds me of when you were in Queens in a laundromat, and there was a guy who was washing his girlfriend's laundry and was about to put the bras—and I was like, "Oh. Well, she probably didn't tell him to do that." And you were like, "Oh, no, I'm sure she did tell him not to dry the bras."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So Tanya could have told her husband, "Oh, test them before you take them out."

Leah: Yeah, but she didn't know, because it says "Apparently, Tanya didn't tell him to check."

Nick: Well, I think the "apparently" in that sentence is the brownies were underdone, so that must mean Tanya didn't.

Leah: Oh, I read it differently. I read it as Tanya was like, "Oh, I didn't tell him."

Nick: Either way, continue.

Leah: Because I often think some men—#NotAllMen—when they're doing something that they don't normally do, they're doing something for somebody else, they need very explicit instructions.

Nick: Sure. Yeah, I agree with that.

Leah: Because they're not gonna be like, "Should I do this thing in the middle?" They're gonna be like, "I'm following the instructions that were given to me."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then he brought them over to the church.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So this is what I would do if I was Tanya. I would write back and I would say, "I read this email aloud to my husband."

Nick: Ooh, you're gonna say that in the email?

Leah: I would read it aloud to my husband so we could mock this woman together.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And then ...

Nick: But you're not putting that in your response back to this woman.

Leah: Oh, I certainly am. And then I would say ...

Nick: Oh, you're saying in the email, like, "Dear Church Lady, I read the email you sent to my husband."

Leah: Yeah. And I would say, "as he took them out of the oven and brought them over."

Nick: Ah, okay. Go on.

Leah: And then I would say, "And we were both taken aback."

Nick: Oh, okay.

Leah: "But I will be over to pick up my tins. Thank you."

Nick: Oh, "We're just taken aback." No explanation for why. No further detail.

Leah: You know why. You know why. She knows why.

Nick: Interesting.

Leah: That's what I would say.

Nick: So I went on a huge emotional rollercoaster on this question.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Like, at first I was like, oh, well, that was kind of rude of this woman to, like, say that. And then I was like, but if I brought underbaked brownies and didn't realize it, would I want to know? Maybe I would want to know. And then, like, wasn't this actually a somewhat polite way to let me know that, like, oh, there was an issue with the brownies? And then it was like, okay, maybe that actually was polite. But then I was thinking, it's actually kind of hard to underbake brownies, because they are typically always pulled out of the oven right before they're done. You know, they're always gonna be a little wet. When you do the toothpick test, it doesn't come out clean the way I do brownies. I don't want a super dry brownie.

Leah: No, you do not.

Nick: Right? And so visually, when you're looking at the brownies, like, for it to be so raw in the middle that it can't be served, you wouldn't pull that out of the oven and be like, "Oh, these are done." And then I was thinking, we are married to the brownie person in a hundred-mile radius. I mean, we are living with a brownie expert; for at least a decade she's been making brownies. I live with this person. I have seen a lot of brownies come out of that oven. I know what they should look like. I've been around it. And so then I was thinking, what if the brownies were not underbaked? What if they were actually perfectly perfect brownies, and they just weren't the type of brownie that this church lady likes? She likes a cakier, drier brownie. And so to her mind, oh, they were underbaked because they were still moist in the middle. And then I was like, oh, now I don't like her again. So I really came full circle.

Leah: You did really come full circle. Because I mean, honestly, there is no way they were that underbaked. It's impossible.

Nick: It's kind of impossible, because for a brownie to be that soupy in the middle, like, you would of course see it when you're pulling it—I mean, you would know. They're not gonna be dry and crackly at the top. Like, they're not gonna be pulling away from the sides. Like, you know. And also, you've been around brownies for at least a decade. You're married to Tanya. You know.

Leah: Yeah. He's not bringing over soup.

Nick: No. So I actually think that the brownies might have been fine. I think we live in a world in which actually the brownies—the whole premise is incorrect.

Leah: Well, the thing was if the brownie was a little bit too gooey in the middle, all the brownies on the roundabout around the sides of it are totally fine.

Nick: Also that, yes.

Leah: There's no way the entire pan of brownies is beyond unservable.

Nick: Yeah. So that's—so I do wonder. I do wonder what was the actual nature of this brownie?

Leah: "That's why my husband and I, after reading your email out loud, are very taken aback. I'll be over to pick up my tins."

Nick: Then I was thinking, you don't have to respond. No response is a response. So I might just go grab my tins. I don't know if I have to respond to them.

Leah: But Tanya isn't responding right now. So that's where she's going.

Nick: Right. Yeah, and I think you don't actually have to respond ever. You could just let this go.

Leah: Yes, I think you could also not respond.

Nick: But the temptation now will be, I'm never gonna make brownies again for you, church lady.

Leah: No, that's not Tanya. That's not Tanya.

Nick: That's not Tanya. That would be my inclination.

Leah: That would be yours. But that's not in Tanya's heart.

Nick: No, Tanya's a better person than I am. Yeah.

Leah: Tanya is a different kind of person than you are.

Nick: Fair enough. Yes. She is a—she—some may say better. Yes.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So yeah, I have a lot of follow-up questions about really, were these brownies underbaked or was it just a matter of taste? But I think a question, though, is if these truly were underbaked, would you want to know? If you were Tanya, would you want to know or would you never want to know?

Leah: The thing is is that I deeply do not believe it.

Nick: But if it were true, if your husband took brownies out of the oven after two minutes and it was just liquid.

Leah: The thing is is that there's no way that he didn't wait until the alarm.

Nick: Right. Yeah. No, he left them in for the allotted amount of time.

Leah: This is a man who is driving them over to the church.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: He waited until the alarm. It's just that maybe it needed a minute more.

Nick: Also, they stay in the pan and so they're still cooking a little bit when you take them out.

Leah: Yeah. It's just impossible.

Nick: Yeah. I call shenanigans on this.

Leah: Shenanigans.

Nick: I call shenanigans. Yeah, I don't think there was a brownie problem.

Leah: It would be hard for me now to be like, "I wish you'd taken a picture, because it's hard for me to believe that this wasn't just your preference in brownie."

Nick: Yeah. I mean, if you really wanted to get into it with them, be like, "Oh, tell me more about your brownie preferences. How little moisture do you enjoy in your brownies?"

Leah: There's also just something a little aggressive about the idea that it's like, I'm baking brownies for funeral services for grieving people, for the church family to be together, and then you are taking them home.

Nick: Oh, that's also—okay. Yeah, because where would the pan have been otherwise?

Leah: It would have been at the church.

Nick: Yeah. Now here's a diabolical thought: What if the brownies are so good—which I think they probably are, because you're so good at baking brownies. What if the church lady just wanted the brownies for herself, and so just took the whole pan home?

Leah: I just don't trust this woman any—at all. So I mean, that seems completely plausible.

Nick: That would be so diabolical, right?

Leah: That seems completely plausible at this point.

Nick: Diabolical. Yeah. Oh, I wonder if that's what happened. That's what happened. That's what I'm going to say happened. The brownies were fine, and they actually—they were so good that she doesn't want to keep them for herself.

Leah: Which is not very church like.

Nick: And she ate all the evidence. Hmm!

Leah: Ate all the evidence.

Nick: She sure did, yeah. There's no way to prove it now.

Leah: Wow. That's why I like that, "We read your email and were taken aback, but I'll come pick up my tins." Because I want her to know I have my eye on you, brownie stealer.

Nick: Yeah, you may get away with this once, but you're not gonna get away with it twice.

Leah: Yeah. Or like a, "Seems unlikely, but okay."

Nick: Mm-hmm. Like, "Oh, how curious!"

Leah: "How curious!"

Nick: "How curious." So you out there, do you have any curious questions for us? Let us know! You can let us know through our website: WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Nick ...

Nick: [laughs] Oh! That's—that's a vent sound.

Leah: I'm gonna vent.

Nick: Okay. What has happened?

Leah: I just—I wanted to believe. You know when you want to believe oh, this was a mistake?

Nick: Yes. You want to believe in the inherent goodness of everybody.

Leah: And then you're like, "This seems to be happening a lot."

Nick: Okay, what are we talking about?

Leah: So I've been in Maine.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: And I'm taking a lot of woods walks with the dogs.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Beautiful woods in Maine.

Leah: Beautiful woods. A lot of trail walks, some walks along the rivers, you know? On all of these walks, I will see dog poop that has been put in a bag.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And then left.

Nick: Okay. So we are cleaning up after our pet, sort of. But then we just leave the bag there. That's, like, worse because now we have, like, plastic in the environment.

Leah: Exactly.

Nick: Oh, that's rude.

Leah: We are in nature. You could, if you were gonna do that, just flick it further into the woods so nobody steps on it.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: That's not what I'm doing. I'm picking up my bag and carrying it with me. Unless we're, like, in the deep woods, then obviously I'm flicking it, but—and then I like—well, maybe the person was carrying it and it dropped. You know, sometimes because you have your leash and your bag in the same hand?

Nick: Sure.

Leah: But it's a little bit too often for it to be happening.

Nick: How curious! So these people just don't want to, like, have to carry it out?

Leah: They don't want to carry the poo. But it's also then don't pollute. Don't double—I mean, you've doubled down, you've made it worse. Because poo is gonna biodegrade.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: But your bag most certainly is not.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, that's disappointing.

Leah: It's so disappointing.

Nick: Also, in the part of Maine where you are, are there a lot of tourists? I feel like this is mostly just local people.

Leah: Well, now there are a lot of tourists, and a lot of people have a lot to say about that.

Nick: That's the problem, because I feel like locals aren't gonna do this to their own environment. And maybe the tourists are less respectful?

Leah: I mean, I would say I would hope so.

Nick: But still ...

Leah: I mean, I don't know. I don't know who's doing it. I would love to blame the tourists, but I mean, that seems ...

Nick: It's too easy.

Leah: [laughs] I mean, everybody in Maine blames people from Massachusetts. I feel like we've discussed this before.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: So I guess every time I see one, I could just yell, "Massachusetts!"

Nick: Yeah. Oh, but that's so disappointing.

Leah: Just stop it. And I know some people will be like, "Well, a lot of the bags biodegrade." Not immediately.

Nick: Yeah, and also those biodegradable plastic bags, it needs very specific, like, circumstances to actually break down.

Leah: Yeah, like, needs to be heated, right? It's like a whole—just if you're gonna do that—Well, don't—just don't do that. Either carry it out ...

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Carry it out.

Nick: Yeah, that's it. Well, for me, I would like to vent. And so a new hotel actually just opened somewhat near where I live in New York City, who shall remain nameless. And they have a new hotel bar.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So with a friend, I went to go grab a drink at the hotel bar. And it was like a Tuesday or Wednesday, so, like, you know, midweek. And so we were stopped at the door, and so they were like, "Oh, sorry, we're full tonight, but so you know, there's a dress code." And so I was wearing a polo shirt and dark jeans and nice shoes and totally fine. Looked nice. Great. So then I was like, "Oh, well, what's the dress code? The website didn't mention anything." And so this guy said—and this is where my memory goes a little fuzzy, because I died.

Leah: I'm getting very—I'm, like, having trouble breathing right now.

Nick: I started floating above my body, and I'm looking down at myself in this lobby, and then, like, "Oh, this is it. Oh, this was—I had such a good run. I had a great time on this Earth. And, like, I feel content. Oh, I am dead now." And so I'm not exactly sure what he said, but I believe what he said the dress code was quote, "Chic, trendy and fashionable."

Leah: Oh!

Nick: [laughs] Oh!

Leah: Dagger to the heart.

Nick: Fashionable. And I—oh, I am like, wow. Like, I'm not a fashion plate, GQ model. Okay, fine. But, like, I feel like I look nice, especially for a downtown hotel. Like, you know?

Leah: You do look nice, Nick. Always.

Nick: So I was like, "Oh, okay. So what I'm currently wearing is not chic, trendy or fashionable. Okay." And so I was like, "Okay, thank you. Bye bye." And so a week later, I go back wearing the exact same thing. And I walk up—and it's earlier in the day, so they're not as busy—and I was sort of like, "Table for one please, for a cocktail." And I was like, "Oh, by the way, I was just curious. Like, what's the dress code?" It's like, "Oh, just as long as you have a collared shirt. We prefer pants, but dark jeans are fine. Right this way." So what do we make of this?

Leah: I don't know. I did get a little breathless in the middle of that. And, like, you know, like, a heat rose inside of me. I was so anxious. I absolutely get—I always black out when people say crazy things.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I sort of feel like you knew that person from somewhere else.

Nick: Oh! Oh, ooh, gosh. Oh, what do we make of that then?

Leah: And they were trying to—you obviously crushed their soul at some point.

Nick: Oh, I mean, that's plausible. Okay. [laughs]

Leah: And they were lashing out at you.

Nick: I've been in New York City a long time. I mean, there's a lot of carnage left in my wake. But yeah, but also the way that he said it, because it wasn't like, "Oh, our dress code is: fashionable." It was more just very factual. It was like—it was as if he was saying, like, "Oh, no. The dress code is black tie." So, like, "Oh, no. The dress code is chic, fashionable and trendy." Just very factual. And, like, clearly what you're wearing is not. Obviously, you agree. Surely you know that what you're wearing is not any of these things. So no debate here. So wild. But the fact that the dress code is just like collared shirt and dark pants and, like, not tennis shoes, like, that's all the dress code is.

Leah: Maybe this person misunderstood the dress code.

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: And they thought that that meant like.

Nick: Comme des Garçons asymmetrical.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, okay. Or maybe the dress code changed in the one week between something totally unachievable by mere mortals and then, like, something reasonable because they're like, "Oh, we're trying to run a commercial establishment here, so somebody wearing nice, perfectly fine clothing should be allowed."

Leah: Yeah, maybe so many people got turned away that people were making phone calls and they were like, "Oh, we're not doing this right."

Nick: But all I know is that my standard form of dress is neither trendy, chic or fashionable. So I learned that.

Leah: I love that you went back. That's so Nick. That's so Nick. I would just never go back.

Nick: Oh, I made sure I was wearing the exact same thing. Of course! Absolutely. Yeah, I was like, turn me away again twice. Yeah, just try. And PS, it wasn't that great. I wouldn't go back. It has nothing to do with, like, the door policy. It was just like, eh, it's not that great. There's other places to go in New York City.

Leah: That's so funny to me that you went back.

Nick: Of course I went. I am petty. At the end of the day, I'm nothing if not petty.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So that's my vent.

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Well, I was so thrilled by the carriages at midnight, and the whole invitation.

Nick: Isn't that fun?

Leah: It was so fun.

Nick: Yes. Everybody should put "carriages" on their next invitation, no matter what it is.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Yeah, just your next, like, meeting with your boss. Your next Zoom meeting with your boss at 2:00 pm, be like, "All right, we're gonna meet for 2:00, and then carriages at 2:30." [laughs] And I learned that you tried to return something and they weren't having it.

Leah: They weren't. I can only assume that they lived in New York City for a while, and these are the walls that they built up. And I get it.

Nick: We do what we need to do. Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, I want your father-in-law questions.

Leah: Yes. We've only had, I believe, two.

Nick: Yes. And why is that? Is that just because, like, they're always on their best behavior? Is that what it is?

Leah: No, I think there's some more deep-rooted gender dynamics happening.

Nick: No!

Leah: Where we expect different things from women, and then women are—have closer relationships, you know?

Nick: In this society?

Leah: I know, it's a shocker.

Nick: Wow! Okay. Well, if you have any good fathers-in-law questions, please send them to us. And send everything else you want to send us, but definitely if you have any good fathers-in-law stories, we want to hear them.

Leah: Please.

Nick: And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: I would like to do a cordials of kindness. I had a show in Vermont at the Vermont Comedy Club, and some of our amazing Wolves family showed up.

Nick: Oh, that's nice!

Leah: Yes. And I mean, my heart grew three sizes that day. It was just so lovely. And then some people that I went to elementary school showed up.

Nick: Oh, wow!

Leah: It was just a wonderful feeling and I'm so happy. And thank you so much for coming. It's so wonderful to meet our Wolves family. It means so much to me.

Nick: Oh, that is very nice. And for me, I want to say thanks to my friend Chris. One of the fun things about living in New York City is you'll just get random texts from friends, like, in the middle of the day, which is like, "Hey, I have an extra ticket to this thing at Joe's Pub tonight. It includes dinner and a show. Can you make it?" And I was sort of like, "What time?" And he was like, "6:30." And I was like, "Yeah, I can do that." And so how fun!

Leah: So fun!

Nick: So that just means Leah, we have to wrap this up.

Leah: Oh, we gotta wrap it up, Nick.

Nick: [laughs] But thanks, Chris. I can't wait for tonight. That's super fun.

Leah: So fun. So lovely.

Nick: So thank you.

Leah: Thank—great friends are amazing.

Nick: Great friends are great. Yeah. So great.

Leah: Great!